VLD bullets - short range vs. long range accuracy

[Turbulent Turtle]

Yeah, they follow the same trajectory because they are sufficiently stable to remain point on and as their stability increases whatever displacement was due to not being sufficiently stabilized is halted; the bullets all stay aimed the same way they came out of the muzzle, altered by the conditions, of course. But that's another story.

Think of it as firing imperfect bullets that get better as they fly.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I guess I just don't have any of these magical bullets that come back and print a good group at long distance after printing big groups at 100 yards.

 

[johara1]

I guess the wind doesn't bother these bullets the whole way to 3000 yds. Us poor unfortunate shooters that must rely on wind reading ability at 1000 yds to get groups in .2 of a minute of angle are dead in the water if you would bring it to the 1000 yd. nationals …… jim

 

[mikecr]

You could expend the resources to feed all the worlds children searching for this god bullet with a super collider.. Or, you could shoot through Oehler 43 acoustic screens at 100 and 500 (just slightly cheaper).
Either way the delusion would end.

Our bullets don't fly,, they fall.

 

[orkan]

I'm curious... does anyone else here have experience with 375CT using solids?

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I guess I just don't have any of these magical bullets that come back and print a good group at long distance after printing big groups at 100 yards.

Well, I don't either but as I understand it that's how the hypothesis goes.

Me, I skip all that by spinning my long bullets faster and having them completely stable coming out of the muzzle. They produce tiny groups at short range and if I do well deciphering the conditions at 1000 yards, they will not let me down.

 

[Old Navy]

I guess I just don't have any of these magical bullets that come back and print a good group at long distance after printing big groups at 100 yards.

Well, I don't either but as I understand it that's how the hypothesis goes.

Me, I skip all that by spinning my long bullets faster and having them completely stable coming out of the muzzle. They produce tiny groups at short range and if I do well deciphering the conditions at 1000 yards, they will not let me down.

+1 and who would even waste their time shooting a 1 MOA load past 100 yards? Later!

 

[orkan]

I wonder what kind of proof would be required for you gentlemen to acknowledge even the possibility of what I'm presenting here. I remember when I was as entrenched in my views as some here. I felt really stupid when I was proven wrong. I've made an effort to not do that since.

 

[johara1]

I wonder what kind of proof would be required for you gentlemen to acknowledge even the possibility of what I'm presenting here. I remember when I was as entrenched in my views as some here. I felt really stupid when I was proven wrong. I've made an effort to not do that since.

My point is you can say that it gets smaller, that small group at longer ranges would also been smaller at a 100. If you get one to shoot small ,i would bet you get the a bunch that shoot big or do you pick the ones you want? Say if you fire 10 do count all ten or the best 5 ?….. jim

 

[amlevin]

My point is you can say that it gets smaller, that small group at longer ranges would also been smaller at a 100.

Sometimes my groups get so small at long ranges that you can't even see them on the target 8) 8)

 

[johara1]

Think about this ….. point zero is the muzzle a hundred yds it opens up to 2.5 "even if it is unstable at that point and it does get better where is it headed ?? They don't suck in to center from every direction, i may see one hit the wind and blow it in to a group. The worst thing is an unstable bullet in the wind as it affected more than one that is stable and this is where the Quality of the barrel shines it is asleep as it leaves and not affected by slight wind conditions…….. jim

 

[orkan]

There seems a HUGE disconnect or complete refusal to accept what is being said here. I'm sure it's my fault, as I'm probably not able to find a way to adequately explain it. Are you understanding the difference between linear measurements and angular measurements?

Let me say that I agree, that a group measured in linear inches will never result in a group at longer distance that would measure smaller in linear inches. I'm not sure how much more clearly I can explain that.

However, groups measured in ANGULAR units, NOT linear, can and do measure smaller at distance than up close. I don't believe Bryan Litz has much experience with 375CT... but I'm confident that he would find a suitable scientific explanation for what happens if he did. I'm not sure of another way to put it gentlemen, other than to say that with a 375CT using 352gr Cutting Edge solids, this happens every single time I go out shooting that rifle. 1-3MOA at 100yds, and .5 MOA or better at extended ranges.

I find it very difficult to believe that none of you have ever had groups that measured smaller moa at distance than up close. A .4 moa group at 100yds, then shot a .3 moa group at 300yds? That group didn't shrink in linear inches... but it is smaller in MOA. That's not all that hard to have happen.

I can't stop you from discounting everything I'm saying, or to dismiss it as shooter ability, parallax, or some other variable. I also recognize that I'm new here. If post count is the measure of my skill, then I am still wearing diapers. Though I have won my share of matches, we do have a list of happy customers that I've instructed on shooting long range in various classes that we hold here, I have had articles published in certain a few publications over the years. Have a quick glance at www.primalrights.com for more on all that, but suffice it to say that this isn't my first rodeo. I have no motivation to mislead anyone, and take great care to not accidentally do so... as my profession and livelihood would be in jeopardy otherwise. I can always improve, but on my worst day I'm a 3/4 MOA shooter at 100yds. There is almost no possible way that I could foul up to the extent of producing 2" groups at 100yds, and then carry on to produce .5 MOA at several hundred yards in the same session with the same ammo if there wasn't something more going on. I have told you that no other rifle/cartridge in my possession has blatantly exhibited this behavior. So I would expect that you would seek out experience with those same cartridge/bullet before completely dismissing the possibility. I know this conversation would be going differently if it were in person. I could just lay down behind the rifle in question and show you... and then let you do the same. Then we could dispense with the "no, you're wrong, its shooter error, that's impossible" stuff being thrown my way right now. Just once, it would be nice if a conversation on an internet forum could extend beyond the sarcasm, belittling, and bickering that serves only to stifle discovery. I very much would like a credible and probable scientific explanation for what is going on, yet that has been impossible due to the predictable closed-minded backlash in nearly every instance it is brought up, from people that have no experience with the cartridge/bullet in question. Based on some of the responses, you'd think I was suggesting I'd seen a UFO. In actuality, this is happening, and it's happening every single time I get behind my 375CT. It's a simple and hardened fact. If any of you are near South Dakota, I'll happily come show you. As this effect does not present itself with anything else I shoot, or at least not to the degree that it is easily identifiable, I know that the vast majority of you will not see it in your shooting either. Since it doesn't affect you, I understand that you might not have a motivation to explain it. I'm OK with that. I guess I'm not OK with the "you simply don't know what you're doing" explanation, as the facts would suggest otherwise.

What do you have to risk by having an open mind and accepting the possibility that what I'm saying is truly happening, and attempting to help me find an explanation for it?

 

[Erik Cortina]

orkan, we get what you are saying, but we are trying to figure out how that would work.

Visualize two bullets to make it easy. Bullets are fired from same origin, the muzzle. In order to create a 2.5 MOA group at 100 yards they would fly in a cone pattern deviating from center. If bullets stabilize, what makes them come back to center in order to print a smaller MOA group downrange? Based on the 100 yard group, the best they could do at any distance would be the same 2.5 MOA, however, to print smaller, they would have to come back to center. Let's say they did, now we have an hour glass flight path, which would indicate they would at some point cross and start opening up from there on and print a bigger group further downrange.

If bullets are not stable and shooting well at 100 yards with low ES, you are sacrificing BC, consistency, and predictable accuracy at LR.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I have had articles published in certain a few publications over the years.

I congratulate you on this, however, if you write an article on this topic today, most inexperienced guys will eat it up, however, most accomplished LR shooters such as many on this site will disagree with you.

 

[orkan]

orkan, we get what you are saying, but we are trying to figure out how that would work.

Visualize two bullets to make it easy. Bullets are fired from same origin, the muzzle. In order to create a 2.5 MOA group at 100 yards they would fly in a cone pattern deviating from center. If bullets stabilize, what makes them come back to center in order to print a smaller MOA group downrange?

Thank you for the continued discussion Erik. This shows me where our disconnect is.

The answer to your question is, they don't! What you are describing is impossible, or at least VERY improbable unless you are shooting those new DARPA guided bullets. What you are describing is NOT what I am describing. A 2.5" group measured at 100yds is 2.5 MOA roughly. A 4" group measured at 500yds is less than 1 MOA. This is the type of thing that happens with 375CT every time I shoot it. I've tried to accentuate this the entire time... I'm talking angular units here, not linear.

Nothing on earth or in heaven will make this cartridge with the bullets I've outlined shoot small groups at 100yds. I've wasted several thousand dollars in components trying to make it do so. As have others. Yet it will easily produce sub-moa at 1000yds and beyond.

 

[orkan]

I have had articles published in certain a few publications over the years.

I congratulate you on this, however, if you write an article on this topic today, most inexperienced guys will eat it up, however, most accomplished LR shooters such as many on this site will disagree with you.

Not very constructive. I'm not accomplished or experienced? Are you? How are we to measure this exactly, and how is it going to help anyone? If I tell you what I can do with a rifle, are you to believe me? Based on your above post, you aren't even on the same page in understanding what I'm saying is happening, so how can we jump right to the conclusion that people that "know what they are talking about," apparently unlike me, will disagree? How does that help, and how do you know I don't know or am inexperienced without actually engaging in conversation or shooting together?

If there is a hole somewhere in this website that I'm suppose to insert my favorite member for inspection and measurement in order for what I say to carry any weight, please direct me to it.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I have had articles published in certain a few publications over the years.

I congratulate you on this, however, if you write an article on this topic today, most inexperienced guys will eat it up, however, most accomplished LR shooters such as many on this site will disagree with you.

Not very constructive. I'm not accomplished or experienced? Are you? How are we to measure this exactly, and how is it going to help anyone? If I tell you what I can do with a rifle, are you to believe me? Based on your above post, you aren't even on the same page in understanding what I'm saying is happening, so how can we jump right to the conclusion that people that "know what they are talking about," apparently unlike me, will disagree? How does that help, and how do you know I don't know or am inexperienced without actually engaging in conversation or shooting together?

If there is a hole somewhere in this website that I'm suppose to insert my favorite member for inspection and measurement in order for what I say to carry any weight, please direct me to it.

LOL, no where that I know for you to insert number for inspection. I did not say you were inexperienced, I just pointed out that accomplished LR shooter would disagree, like they are doing here now. I'm not claiming to be accomplished, but I now many that are on this site. On the other hand, some might also agree with you, so there you have it, we are still at the starting gate.

Now, on with the discussion.

I don't think I'm very far off in my description of what I think you think is going on. Of course, my example was exaggerated for clarity.

To shoot 2.5" at 100 yards, bullets had to form a cone shape pattern, what then makes them point back towards center and shoot a smaller MOA at 400 yards since their trajectory at 100 yards showed them to be going away from center line?

 

[orkan]

To shoot 2.5" at 100 yards, bullets had to form a cone shape pattern, what then makes them point back towards center and shoot a smaller MOA at 400 yards since their trajectory at 100 yards showed them to be going away from center line?

You call your first reference in inches... and call your second reference in MOA. I literally have no idea how to explain this any clearer. They are continuing to expand away from center line, they are simply not doing it in accordance with what most cartridges will do. 2.5" is smaller than 4"... is it not? 2.5MOA is bigger than .8 MOA is it not?

They are still expanding away from centerline... just not at the "normal" rate for most cartridges we shoot.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ok, inches or MOA at 100 almost the same, so fine, MOA.

Draw it on a piece of paper and you will understand what we are saying. To get from a 0 MOA group (muzzle) to a 2.5 MOA group at 100 yards, bullets have to deviate from center line. If they continue their trajectory in a straight line, it would be 5 MOA at 500 yards. What makes bullets change their previous path that made them shoot 2.5 MOA at 100 yards?

 

[johara1]

To shoot 2.5" at 100 yards, bullets had to form a cone shape pattern, what then makes them point back towards center and shoot a smaller MOA at 400 yards since their trajectory at 100 yards showed them to be going away from center line?

You call your first reference in inches... and call your second reference in MOA. I literally have no idea how to explain this any clearer. They are continuing to expand away from center line, they are simply not doing it in accordance with what most cartridges will do. 2.5" is smaller than 4"... is it not? 2.5MOA is bigger than .8 MOA is it not?

They are still expanding away from centerline... just not at the "normal" rate for most cartridges we shoot.

Ok, anser me just a couple of Questions,You have a bullet thats not affected by the wind? You have a bullet that will only shoot in 2.4 min. at 100 but will hold 1 min. the rest of the way ? and it will do this all the time? Every sniper in the world will want this you can't miss …… don't even need a spotter ………. jim