VLD bullets - short range vs. long range accuracy

[orkan]

Ok, inches or MOA at 100 almost the same, so fine, MOA.

Draw it on a piece of paper and you will understand what we are saying. To get from a 0 MOA group (muzzle) to a 2.5 MOA group at 100 yards, bullets have to deviate from center line. If they continue their trajectory in a straight line, it would be 5 MOA at 500 yards. What makes bullets change their previous path that made them shoot 2.5 MOA at 100 yards?

What indeed!? Clearly the shot cone is not proceeding in a straight line. It is continuing to open up, but not to the degree it "should."

 

[mikecr]

Not to frustrate you further orkan, but there is something to accept here; you don't actually know the cause of your special condition. That is, you're unable to provide credible basis for your notions of the cause.
Some of us know this because we've seen it play out many times across many shooting forums, and conclusions remain indeterminate.

I'm sure some would conclude that something is causing your poor 100yd grouping, and there is an unknown change to the condition causing it -with distant shooting.
It seems irrational otherwise, and with no evidence, that this occurs without that change of conditions.

You brought 'shrinking moa with distance', 'bullets going to sleep' and a wildly misunderstood epicyclic swerve video to the table -as explanation. And we provide counter reasoning.

I'll do so again;
'Bullets going to sleep' simply describes improving stability characteristics, and NOT improving flight path.
My basis is weak, and merely rests with the fact that nobody has proven otherwise. But that's my counter.
I am absolutely confident that shooting through multiple acoustic screens would prove my counter, even with your special condition.
That boat tail bullets provide advantage over FB bullets with furthering distance, is purely a matter of drag reduction.
That Flat base bullets provide advantage over BT bullets up close, comes down to cleaner muzzle release, and lower stability requirements.
If FB bullets offered as much BC as BT bullets, use of FB bullets would be prevalent at all distances today.
But our cosmic balance provides nothing for free.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ok, inches or MOA at 100 almost the same, so fine, MOA.

Draw it on a piece of paper and you will understand what we are saying. To get from a 0 MOA group (muzzle) to a 2.5 MOA group at 100 yards, bullets have to deviate from center line. If they continue their trajectory in a straight line, it would be 5 MOA at 500 yards. What makes bullets change their previous path that made them shoot 2.5 MOA at 100 yards?

What indeed!? Clearly the shot cone is not proceeding in a straight line. It is continuing to open up, but not to the degree it "should."

If it continues to open up, there is no way it would print smaller MOA downrange than at 100 yards. The only way smaller MOA groups can be printed downrange is if the bullets modified their path.

I'll give you an example that does what you describe, but for different reasons than what you speak of. Fast bullet leaves muzzle as barrel is whipping up. Slower bullet stays in barrel longed so it leaves muzzle when barrel is pointing higher than with fast bullet. At 100 yards, slow bullet is shooting higher than fast bullet. Further downrange, the slow bullet will slow down and cross paths with fast bullet, at that point they will shoot "one hole" groups, but after that they will continue to open up again. In my scenario, it can happen.

In your scenario, I still don't see how unstable bullets can become more accurate when they stabilize and shooting smaller MOA groups downrange.

 

[orkan]

Not to frustrate you further orkan, but there is something to accept here; you don't actually know the cause of your special condition. That is, you're unable to provide credible basis for your notions of the cause.

That is very true... and I won't argue it. Unlike a lot of people, I don't attach my ego to my shooting ability. That's why I like conversation on the topic to be unimpeded by postulating no one knows what they're talking about. I said from the start that I could not adequately explain why. I merely proposed some ideas I had as to why.

However, "my" condition is not "special" at all. It happens to everyone shooting the big boomers with long solids. ... and I mean everyone. I haven't talked to a single shooter using the big cartridges and long solids that says they haven't seen it.

Have a look here: http://forum.snipershide.com/elr-beyond-1000-yards/215911-375ct-100yd-groups-vs-300yd-groups.html This discussion has come up many times, and I've talked about it many times with a LOT of other 375CT and 408CT shooters. All tell me they've seen the same thing, but none of us are able to adequately explain why. In other threads where ELR isn't prevalent, it goes a lot like this one has. The guys that have experienced it try to convince others it exists, while those that have no experience with the only cartridges that seem to exhibit it so drastically try to portray those with the experience as not knowing what they are talking about.

That's frustrating, as there is clearly something going on... and I'd love to know why. I know a lot of things, and my profession dictates that I do so, and there's no doubt far more that I don't know... but it is frustrating to not be able to completely explain this to every single customer that orders a 375CT from me. They have ALL called and cited it. I tell them up front to move past 100, 200, or even 400yds for load development, but they are still completely amazed when they see it for themselves. Happens every time.

So yes fellas, why indeed! I would really like to know.

 

[M-61]

Let me ask this as I have NO way actually understand the swirling diagram, the sleeping bullets, et al.

If you put targets at 100, 200,500, and 1000 yards at the correct height above the ground....all in a perfectly straight line.
You have an ideal day to shoot weather wise.
You have the targets at an elevation so a bullet will pass through all of them and of course through the last at 1000 yards.
You are aiming at the 100 yard one. You shoot 5 shots.
From what I see from what I read here by some is.....the 100 yard group is not so good but when those same bullets continue to the 1000 yard target they have somehow become a great group. (granted for 1000 yds.)
This is a lousy analogy I know but I just fail to see this happening. What do the groups look like on the 200 and 500 yard targets? At what point do the 5 bullets decide its time to close up?

 

[orkan]

Have you ever tried traditional lead core jacketed bullets out of any of those rifles?

Yes I have. Spent a lot of time with 350SMK's for that very reason. The only thing I learned was that they do not exhibit the same types of behavior at close ranges as compared to the solids. I could get sub-moa with the 350SMK at 100yds pretty easily. At 1000yds they were about 30-50% bigger groups, and they performed horribly approaching and past a mile. However, their "pattern" expanded predictably as compared to any of my other cartridge/bullet combos. As I mentioned, 375CT with solids... is the only time I see this strangeness.

In regard to that experiment, it would be easier with 375CT than most things, as you've only got about 5 mils of drop to 1000yds.... but it would still be very difficult to setup. The only way I see it working is if you had optical sensors/electronic targets like lapua and eley have in their test tunnels. I'm fresh out of those.

 

[M-61]

The problem with that type of experiment is that there is no way to rule out an effect of hitting the first target (even if it's just paper) on the trajectory of the bullet as it travels toward the next target. Placing two high speed cameras at each distance with some calibrated length measure in the field of view so that you could determine vertical and horizontal displacement at each distance without affecting the trajectory would be one way to do it. But those cameras are pretty expensive and setting them up properly would be a PITA. It's really not so easy for the typical shooter to set up an experiment that will conclusively address the question.

Well you shot me down with your first sentence! Sure...I never thought of that at all! And I thought my scenario may have helped me understand. I am surprised someone somewhere has not done it with your camera statement.

 

[orkan]

What do the groups look like on the 200 and 500 yard targets? At what point do the 5 bullets decide its time to close up?

Well they don't "close up" but rather refuse to follow the standard shot cone that all of us are familiar with. So it is not uncommon to have a 2.5" group at 100yds be a 3" group at 600yds.

 

[StemCell]

Wow, I never expected this depth of response; you folks are awesome!

All I can add is that to my thinking, some law(s) of physics would need to be countered for a group to tighten as the distance increases, and just what force(s) would work to accomplish that seem to escape us.

M61 - I agree that conceptually your experiment should provide the empirical data to validate or invalidate the concept of diminishing group size, if we could eliminate the interference impact with any media would introduce. While we are dreaming of the perfect experiment, may I also introduce a stable atmospheric environment to conduct it in.

Thank you all.

 

[mikecr]

"my" condition is not "special" at all. It happens to everyone shooting the big boomers with long solids.

The condition is special, given these qualifiers only. Right?

Also with ELR, there is a lot of preconditioning leading to results of it.
Are you really expending the same efforts up close?
I mean it doesn't seem like you're concerned with horrible grouping at 100yds.

There have been wild claims by solid bullet makers in the past. Things like LRB's claims of bullets not nosing over, increasing overall BC(to beyond reality). These are generally debunked with independent testing, and today most claims are dismissed to merchandising.
Take care not to try the world class shooters on this board with any kind of snake oil, or wild claims.
Not sayin you're doing that,, just sayin.

StemCell, Oehler43 acoustic targets would get it done with any bullets still supersonic.
http://www.oehler-research.com/wizard.html
http://www.oehler-research.com/model43.html

 

[orkan]

Are you really expending the same efforts up close?
I mean it doesn't seem like you're concerned with horrible grouping at 100yds.

Are you aware of the costs involved with 375CT rifles and their ammo? I spent a few thousand dollars in components in an attempt to learn what was going on. So you could say I was expending the same efforts at close range... yes.

Rather than being right back where this all started... is it out of line to request that we just assume that myself, and every other 375CT shooter are holding up our end?

 

[johara1]

Are you really expending the same efforts up close?
I mean it doesn't seem like you're concerned with horrible grouping at 100yds.

Are you aware of the costs involved with 375CT rifles and their ammo? I spent a few thousand dollars in components in an attempt to learn what was going on. So you could say I was expending the same efforts at close range... yes.

Rather than being right back where this all started... is it out of line to request that we just assume that myself, and every other 375CT shooter are holding up our end?

Thousands of dollars in components is not unusual for a long range shooter…….. You never answered my question how does the wind affect these bullets? and does it affect the regular bullet the same?what do the holes look like at 100 yds? and at longer range? jim

 

[orkan]

Thousands of dollars in components is not unusual for a long range shooter…….. You never answered my question how does the wind affect these bullets? and does it affect the regular bullet the same?what do the holes look like at 100 yds? and at longer range? jim

Do most long range shooters spend $4-$7 every time they press the trigger? Not quite the same jim.

A 10mph 9:00 wind calls for L1.1 mils at 1000yds from 100yd zero. By "regular" bullets I assume you are talking about 350SMK? If so, it calls for L1.4 mils in same conditions.

Holes at 100yds seem to be perfect circles, same at distance.

 

[amax]

Easy solution, let someone of known ability shoot your rifle at these distances and see if same happens. If so its the bullets, if not its just you.

 

[orkan]

Easy solution, let someone of known ability shoot your rifle at these distances and see if same happens. If so its the bullets, if not its just you.

Have you read the thread? This has been done... and this happens to every 375CT shooter I've ever talked with.

 

[amax]

My 6mm br shoots 105 berger vlds better at 300 than at 100. They shoot 1/2 moa at 100 and 1/4 moa at 300. On a windless day they will do this over and over like clockwork.

 

[amax]

Sorry that reply was not meant for you, I thought I was replying to someone else. I believe you about the 375. I was replying to the gentleman that thought he was just shooting better at distance and attributing it to wearing glasses.

 

[M-61]

What do the groups look like on the 200 and 500 yard targets? At what point do the 5 bullets decide its time to close up?

Well they don't "close up" but rather refuse to follow the standard shot cone that all of us are familiar with. So it is not uncommon to have a 2.5" group at 100yds be a 3" group at 600yds.

I can not dispute what you say as I do not grasp the concept or theory. However I think I understand your last sentence. If so, I have sold a couple of rifles in my life that would only group 2.5" at 100 yards. Couldn't do any better at all. Now your last sentence seems to me to mean had I shot these rifles at six times the distance....600 yards.....they MAY have produced a 3" group at that range. ( which would have been fine with me) Do I have this right?
This is not an attempt to argue...merely trying to understand, and the above is a generalized analogy since you incorporated the words "SO IT IS NOT UNCOMMON..."

 

[Old Navy]

My 6mm br shoots 105 berger vlds better at 300 than at 100. They shoot 1/2 moa at 100 and 1/4 moa at 300. On a windless day they will do this over and over like clockwork.

I have done this on several rare occasions. I contributed it to the earth's gravitational pull, the full moon and several stars lined up just right. Oh! And five perfectly built loads. Later! Frank

 

[johara1]

I can safely say i never saw a group get smaller at long range than it did at 100 yds. I can say if i had something shot 2.5" would i go any farther than a barrel vice to yank it off. The wind seems to bother it very similar to a normal bullet, this seems strange and it pull towards the middle but doesn't overlap it's self this strange also. It print's nice round holes that kind of takes the yawing out of the equation. I guess i would have to see this happen to totally believe it can do it all the time. I would truly like to see it…….. jim