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Vista Outdoor and the Primer Market

ronsatspokane said:
Ah, I love a good economics discussion.

Written by someone who was not familiar with Adam Smith. The father of the modern world and capitalism. Being a fan of Ayn Rand (a dog eared copy of Atlas Shrugged sits in my bookcase just steps from my desk) labels me as a Capitalist pig but a capitalist pig who is also familiar with Adam Smith and his book that changed the world for the better. That'd be The Wealth Of Nations. What many self styled capitalists (and dogmatic Libertarians for that matter) fail to realize is the man who started it all recognized that the invisible hand of the marketplace must be bounded. This is necessary lest the excesses resulting from monopoly and collusion lead to the same market imbalances that markets under the control of unresponsive government (or in the days prior to Adam Smith, under the control of aristocracy and royalty) lead to. The bounds are set by reasonable laws. One form of those laws is antitrust. It can work if applied by a well managed and intelligent judicial system in the interest of the market rather than in the interest of the ruling dogma.

Now in the post that prompted the antitrust response, the person was concerned about the ease with which an unresponsive (or unrepresentative) government could sweep away an entire market were it concentrated into too few hands. I would argue that such a government could sweep away any market regardless of how broad the ownership of that market was. Reference the Gold Reserve Act of 1933 under Roosevelt. It made the private ownership of gold illegal. The gold trade was a huge market with very broad ownership which included monetary instruments which were made of gold. A world market gone, with the stroke of a pen.

So to me the bigger issue is the market imbalances resulting from market ownership concentrated into too few hands and the resulting potential for market imbalance. Now I don't think that is what we are seeing currently. I think it is a supply chain issue. The market is working just fine in that it is reacting to a very large increase in demand and it takes time for resources (raw materials and labor) to be allocated to satisfaction of that demand. Going forward however, the potential for market imbalance exists when one company owns the entire market.

P.S, we have recently received an invaluable lesson on the excesses resulting from ownership concentrated into to few hands. That'd be the censorship employed by social media in our most recent election. Zukerberg and Dorsey controlled the message many where hearing. That message changed the results of an election. Don't want antitrust? Then learn to live with the message the new aristocracy wants you to hear.
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In my view, Antitrust laws in the past 50 years have always been applied in accordance with a political dogma slant.

There are no market imbalances caused by ownership concentration and I don’t see it happening. Plenty of competitors (just look at Vista’s foreign sales) that could enter or expand. Vista’s pricing is not what is causing the huge price increases (I kind of wish it was). No one is looking at the fact that Vista will most likely overhaul Remington’s ammo manufacturing process leading to more production not less.

I’m not on Twitter or Facebook so I can’t comment. I will say the worst thing that could happen, did: HE didn’t get banned from Twitter. If HE had he probably would be a lot happier these days.
 
JimT said:
In my view, Antitrust laws in the past 50 years have always been applied in accordance with a political dogma slant.

There are no market imbalances caused by ownership concentration and I don’t see it happening. Plenty of competitors (just look at Vista’s foreign sales) that could enter or expand. Vista’s pricing is not what is causing the huge price increases (I kind of wish it was). No one is looking at the fact that Vista will most likely overhaul Remington’s ammo manufacturing process leading to more production not less.

I’m not on Twitter or Facebook so I can’t comment. I will say the worst thing that could happen, did: HE didn’t get banned from Twitter. If HE had he probably would be a lot happier these days.
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Well, the application of law in the context of politics is a problem as old as civilization and extends well beyond US antitrust law and well beyond the US. Still, the issue of market imbalance due to concentration of ownership is a well documented problem. And that is true regardless of whose hands that concentration is in. It could be in the hands of government functionaries and you end up like Venezuela. It could be in the hands of Oligarchs and you end up like Russia. When it ends up in the hands of people like Zukerberg and Dorsey who are too stupid to not let it fall into the hands of people like AOC and Bernie Sanders then the possibilities are wide ranging, all of those possibilities being bad.

Having said that, I don't see a market imbalance in the primer market currently. I see a market struggling to build the supply chain required to support current demand and in that, the optimum allocation of resources as directed by Adam Smiths "invisible hand" is moving in the right direction. Will that continue as the market consolidates? We need only look to history for the answer to that question.
 
JimT said:
I believe if you go back and watch that again he immediately followed up after using the phrase “self sufficiency” by saying they were interested in “controlling their defense and protection” and then spoke about hunting. I think he did a great job answering her questions.
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He knew she would be adversarial and planned and spoke according. The question about why the sudden increase in gun sales had that "stink bait" smell all over it. Those that are not stock market people, no need to insult us, to each his own.
 
Riesel said:
He knew she would be adversarial and planned and spoke according. The question about why the sudden increase in gun sales had that "stink bait" smell all over it. Those that are not stock market people, no need to insult us, to each his own.
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Have you actually seen any of her other interviews? She just returned from maternity (I think) leave and judging by the welcome she got from two other liberal hosts I would almost bet she is not a liberal. I’m not sure how she couldn’t ask the question about gun sales given who she was interviewing.

Not sure how I insulted you.

Update: When she was interviewing the Governor of West Virginia on 12/22 she was asking about COVID deaths in nursing homes and she went out of her way to blame policies such as those followed in “New York state.” Not something a liberal would emphasize.
 
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wbm said:
Any 12 year old can sell black market Wolf and Tule primers in Mexico too. That is why it is nice to live in a border state. You can get anything in Mexico if you have the ash. Anything!
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A nearby example of the Ferengi economic model, versus say Venezuela under the Hugo Chavev and post-Chavez nominally "anti-elitist system as another axis (can't say side of a the coin because a coin only has 2 sides).
 
mmcu said:
That will make your ass pucker....
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Yeah, exactly. It took me a few seconds to realize the true danger here. Billionaires like them throw hundreds of millions into their pet projects without a second thought. If one of their lackeys recognizes that, thru the purchase of one conglomerate, they could have a stranglehold on the United States primer production.............Game over!:mad:
 
M995 said:
The 2 names mentioned care more about MONEY & power above all else. Hollywood folks have proven that.
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“Power”. Do you think that having the power to shut down ammunition production in the US isn’t enticing to those anti gunners? Bloomberg threw $100 million at Florida to sway the vote. It didn’t even tickle his bottom line.
Like some one else mentioned: Take away a gun owners ammunition and all he has is a bunch of doorstops!
 
LitLBoy said:
Primers are just a little harder to manufacture.
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haha...yeah, but the trick is not blowing yourself up.

I have not started reloading metallic yet but have loaded shot shells for decades and I always preferred Win 209 over Rem 209 for both cost (the Rem's became stupid expensive) and they feed better in most progressive reloaders IME.
 
mr45man said:
Funny, I shot a club match last Friday, relay 1 with Wolf primers, relay 2 with 450’s
same score with both, Wolf had smallest group. These were the brass colored cups.
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The guy's I shoot with that have them swear by them and they do pretty good with them as well. Awhile back I was loading a lot of handgun ammo with Seller & Bellot (?spelling) and those could be bought at Cabela's for cheap, like $24 per thousand but have not seen them in long time.
 
JimT said:
Have you actually seen any of her other interviews? She just returned from maternity (I think) leave and judging by the welcome she got from two other liberal hosts I would almost bet she is not a liberal. I’m not sure how she couldn’t ask the question about gun sales given who she was interviewing.

Not sure how I insulted you.
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Maybe "insult" was a poor choice of word. I'm not offended and hope you are not as well.
 
joshb said:
What do you guys think would happen if Bloomberg or Soros bought Vista?
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Assuming that was a rhetorical question but I would not rule out the possibility. Of course they'd likely shut it down but the great thing about capitalism is the number of individuals and corporate entities that would rush in to fill the vacuum. Rebirth of an industry would be the result. Unless they were prevented by laws enacted by the ruling party.
 
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