Vertical Dispersion: Flat spots on the MV ladder test are meaningless
- Thread starter Beiruty
- Start date
LVLAaron
Gold $$ Contributor
Absolutely no offense to anyone, but a single 3-5 shot group doesn't say anything. Show 60 shots.
Yes, @Tarmacshooter is a troll.
Yes, @Tarmacshooter is a troll.
Not a polite response at all, and completely avoiding the issue.
Seeing as the troll theme is in vogue on this thread, let me clarify my troll-i-ness.
I am an old guy, still learning, still have a lot to learn, and I'm a slow learner. Shooting is my hobby, not my profession. I shoot because I enjoy reloading, not the other way around.
The OP mentioned the Audette ladder test, which was the basis for my response. In hindsight, I should not have said it was useless, as it does indicate harmonic nodes, so it is useful in that context.
Any incremental load development test we do for whatever reason is by definition a ladder test, so getting all worked up about your ladder test when I refer to the Audette ladder test may not be comparing apples with apples.
I have no PRS scores, I'm too old for the gymnastics that go with that. My competition targets are nothing to brag about. I have no national records. I do not have the slightest interest in knowing yours. I have helped my son develop loads and perfect reloading technique for PRS, and it may have been a small contributing factor to his finishing second in factory division at PRS Worlds 2022 in France.
I don't know much, but I know enough to be certain that your national record in PRS or F-Class or whatever else was not set because of an Audette ladder test.
The reason I question the repeatability of the Audette ladder test is because I seriously doubt it is repeatable. A serious question in my view, deserving of a flippant response in yours.
It's not a hard question - have you or anyone else documented the repeatability ? It's a yes or no.
It's still a yes or no wether you or I have world records or not.
If you can't answer, rather remain silent or say you don't know than divert attention with irrelevant aspersions.
I agree, but they are an example of successful load developments. My rifles shoot 0.5 MOA consistently.
No, I’m not a troll. Rather I’ve been baited by the OP and a couple of others that have responded. I do not use the Satterlee Ladder. I don’t like it. I try to stay out if these threads and not contribute to threads like it in other areas of the forum because they quickly turn ugly. Hence my comment about Snipers Hide because we are seeing more and more of their members(former or otherwise) matriculate over here.
Can I repeat my results? Yes. You betcha. Do I have national records? No but I have results. I tend to do 10 to 14 shot ladders and never look at the charge again. I’ll change seating depth or increase the charge by a minute amount and get it back in tune. I know my round. I know where it likes to be where it is not stressing the barrel or brass.
I don’t chase the lands, I look for the node on a target which is a known and tested proven way to start the tune in a rifle. Adjust the seating depth by letting the target tell you where it likes to shoot.
I’m not one try out some radical method of tuning. The method I use, its already proven. I don’t need a lab radar to tune the round I use. With the advent of cheap E-targets you get instant feedback.
Finally, your cherry picked 3/5 5 shot group doesn’t mean anything. If that makes you happy, super! Keep it up. Enjoy and keep shooting.
Can I repeat my results? Yes. You betcha. Do I have national records? No but I have results. I tend to do 10 to 14 shot ladders and never look at the charge again. I’ll change seating depth or increase the charge by a minute amount and get it back in tune. I know my round. I know where it likes to be where it is not stressing the barrel or brass.
I don’t chase the lands, I look for the node on a target which is a known and tested proven way to start the tune in a rifle. Adjust the seating depth by letting the target tell you where it likes to shoot.
I’m not one try out some radical method of tuning. The method I use, its already proven. I don’t need a lab radar to tune the round I use. With the advent of cheap E-targets you get instant feedback.
Finally, your cherry picked 3/5 5 shot group doesn’t mean anything. If that makes you happy, super! Keep it up. Enjoy and keep shooting.
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Clancy
Silver $$ Contributor
So here’s one way I might do it, with prior knowledge of the reamer and cartridge. I tested 6 thou on either side of my old seating depth, at a grain below my old charge (same reamer and barrel make.)
Anywhere from the old depth to 6 shorter looked good so I set it at the old depth and did a little powder work. 32 looks good huh? Let’s make sure. I cleaned the barrel and confirmed my previous suspicion.
This was done for short range but works for long range too.
Clancy
Silver $$ Contributor
Here’s how I might do it for long range. Seating depth was first then this target. Nice little node there at 35.5-35.7. Maybe a little difference in point of impact but I was dealing with some clouds rolling in and out. I went with 35.6 and shot the 3 FIVE shot groups on the bottom row. The one on the right I shot over a chronograph. (First mention of a chronograph.)
3210,3208,3208, 3200,3212
If that won’t kill pronghorn or knock over 4” chickens at 400 yards I’ve done something wrong at the bench.
I can’t see how anyone could deliberately pick a load with ascending velocity, but to each his own.
Here’s an example of five shots at a thousand yards that prove absolutely nothing beyond a snapshot in time.
Repeatability is far more important as shown below two sets of brass on separate days shooting near identical at 500 yards
Repeatability is far more important as shown below two sets of brass on separate days shooting near identical at 500 yards
Attachments
This reminds me of the joke about the scientist and the engineer....the first is looking for "the perfect" answer and the second for "fit for puprose" answer....I am an engineer...always look for fit for purpose
I am not a competivie shooter, just a hunter. Old enough to have been loading before Satterlie, Audette or OBT theories were published. I used tuners before OBT and at times when the peole who sell them now, argued against them.
My first load developent was with a variation of OCW. I have used varations of ladder (combined MV and Elevation changes). I used QuickLoad and GRT. I have a load my friend loaded in his rifle that shoots 5 shots, .5" or less in his rifle, tried it in 3 others, same caliber, same brand, different barrel contour, different muzle brake, different country of manufacture and same results. Took two of these rifles to Africa and was very successful.
To say the "ladder is useless" while millions of people find it effective, is wrong.
You can say "I have another way" would be more appropriate....and let peole and time be the judge
What I am trying to say is, there are many was to get to your target, some are faster than others, some are better than others, but so mane ways have worked for decades now. Use what works for you. I use what works for me. Don't need to convert anyone...but always listening to see if something else is better, in times of scarce resources.
I am not a competivie shooter, just a hunter. Old enough to have been loading before Satterlie, Audette or OBT theories were published. I used tuners before OBT and at times when the peole who sell them now, argued against them.
My first load developent was with a variation of OCW. I have used varations of ladder (combined MV and Elevation changes). I used QuickLoad and GRT. I have a load my friend loaded in his rifle that shoots 5 shots, .5" or less in his rifle, tried it in 3 others, same caliber, same brand, different barrel contour, different muzle brake, different country of manufacture and same results. Took two of these rifles to Africa and was very successful.
To say the "ladder is useless" while millions of people find it effective, is wrong.
You can say "I have another way" would be more appropriate....and let peole and time be the judge
What I am trying to say is, there are many was to get to your target, some are faster than others, some are better than others, but so mane ways have worked for decades now. Use what works for you. I use what works for me. Don't need to convert anyone...but always listening to see if something else is better, in times of scarce resources.
I respectfully disagree
That depends a lot on what your accuracy requirements are. I’ve had a few days in Short Range Benchrest competition, where I didn’t have to change the load to keep a competitive tune. However that’s very rare. Most days I have to tweak my load three times before lunch to keep it shooting competitively.
Bart
Bravo sir.
Bart,
I get it. But we don’t tune or load at the match. We have to bring out best stuff out the day of the match. Sometimes loading months or weeks in advance for a different geographical region.
I don’t pretend to know anything about BR shooting or competitions but someone may have been Aaron (as his dad shot BR) said BR tunes for a clean barrel and we tune dirty and warm. Yeah I said it, I like it dirty.
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