Venting: No one wants to shoot NRA precision pistol. :(
- Thread starter DRNewcomb
- Start date
Tough thread to post on. Compared to everything else changing so fast it seems slower to a degree. Shooting has always been a progressive sport due to mans quest to improve anything he uses. All this was in the works years ago but now there are more minds on the job. How many people do you know have a lathe in their basement now compared to 30 yrs ago? The next millennium generation may have the most trouble keeping this alive when they mature around 50-60. Lol They may be laughing about bullets by then. Virtual?
It's painfull to think about it, but we are only one step away from electronic ammo to go with our accepted replacement for targets. With one round... Load! It's gonna happen some day, maybe sooner than we think. At first it will be just a practice tool and then a match will happen. No more wearing out barrels or wasted time and money on ammo, just go and enjoy the match with no work getting ready.
It's painfull to think about it, but we are only one step away from electronic ammo to go with our accepted replacement for targets. With one round... Load! It's gonna happen some day, maybe sooner than we think. At first it will be just a practice tool and then a match will happen. No more wearing out barrels or wasted time and money on ammo, just go and enjoy the match with no work getting ready.
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You can think what you want, Do you have ofer 50 yrs experience with them? if not you won't get it. As you said they may have taught them otherwise, yet look who they are putting their money on. Those that spray ammo all over a range, throw their guns into trash barrels while on the run to the next station. I've been around the NRA over 50+years, and it's easy to see how the NRA has had to look the other way, in the name of progress.
BTW, I'm a Benefactor Member of the NRA. I was also around when the DCM ran a clean house. Just pay attention to Camp Perry. The future of formal shooting is on display there and it's never going to be the same. There are too many fingers in the pot, and the NRA is not sitting in the top slot.
Remember spaniel, the eddie eagle program only teaches basic safety, not preparing someone to train as a marksman, but go play games and all that training just went out the window. You cannot play the new games without totally ignoring any safety training your boys may have gotten.
Do you recall when the Brits wanted to use lasers at their last olympics, instead of allowing live ammo.
Something some be aware of, some won't, but at Camp Perry they have a state of the art simulator that has every weapon a soldier carries from sidearm to M2 50 bmg. I'd bet you get many youngsters in there and they wouldn't care about laying out in the hot sun or the mud a traditional shooter does. It is basically your kids big screen and their xbox, only on steroids. The weapons actually function, recoil, and make plenty of noise. It's the present generation paradise. When it gets down to it, with today's mentality, what's the real need for these types using live ammo? Really, they get their rocks off in your basement, the arcade, why not just go electronic, as the bullet has no practical purpose these days.
AND,,,,,,,Then we can forget about what recreational shooting was to accomplish, safety, and marksmanship. We have hundreds of thousands of new pistol packers that didn't even get the eddie eagle training. And they are not going to get it either. The plan is to just let them shoot the most dangerous types of competition, as it brings needed cash to pay for rebuilding the grounds destroyed every season, by these folks that think the range is there to shoot at every object within that range. Saves them from wasting their money on targets.
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I've attended quite a number of matches of all different kinds. I have not witnessed any safety problems at NRA events or at NRA affiliated clubs. The safety rules are carefully followed and enforced, with the exception of traditional NRA High Power where I've been swept by rifle barrels quite a few times when participants are moving equipment to and from the line.
It has been a few years. What these new competitions do for a shooter is how to deal with stress. When the timer starts it is comical how flustered a person can get.
I never understood the semiautomatic single shot for service rifle. I always thought it was the old high masters who need to point their rifle at their own head were the cause that stopped me from just loading 22rds. Then I shot BR and truly saw what a dangerous group of people they are. Please stop pointing your rifle at me I do not care if there is not a bolt in or not.
Don't worry as they get older they will slow down who knows they may go away and come back.
Help me. I don't understand where this idea came from that the NRA endorses treating guns as toys came from. Just because a discipline combines speed with "reasonable" accuracy does not mean it's treating a gun as a toy. Sounds like an "it's my way or the highway" attitude. I quit a local club and avoided another because of their goofy rules and ideas done in the name of safety. Such as long range shooting can only be done from the prone position, no benchrest or sitting. We are all for safety. But I think it should make sense.
Mark Ouellette
Silver $$ Contributor
Master the fundamentals. At least that’s what Gary Anderson told me in 1987. It’s been 30 years and I’m still trying to do so.
Bullseye, precision pistol is the application of one trying to master and display the proper use of the fundamentals of marksmanship. The same applies for across the course high power rifle, small bore rifle, air, and so. Although one may achieve decent score at the run-n-gun action shooting disciplines, those persons would probably score higher in the long run had they first mastered the fundamentals. Another poster wrote that Marksman classification in bullseye provided this to which I do not fully agree. It is however a great start. I think shooters reach and remain at levels because they are lacking mastery of some part of the fundamentals. Myself included…
Action shooting is fun, pure fun! But to be good at it one must put in the hours of practice. How would an action shooter do in bullseye against a bullseye shooter firing action pistol? Much would depend on the shooters. If an action shooter and a bullseye shooter both shot both disciplines for a friendly competition, who would win? That would probably depend on the shooters but statistically would the results be even? Steve Huff of Accuracy X is the only person to earn distinguished in both action and service pistol. Look it up. He’s also distinguished in rifle and three other disciplines. Long ago Steve mastered the fundamentals of marksmanship.
For myself, I’d love to compete in action pistol but with a metal joint and arthritis pain whenever the weather changes I’ll stick with bullseye for pistol competition. But in the early 90’s while saying hello to an old friend at Weapons Training Battalion, Quantico, I got to demonstrate real action shooting, counter terrorism tactics.
The story is an old friend Steve, a Range Officer at WTB, was training a Marine Major who was preparing for some type of “special duty” in South America. I could read between the lines and didn’t ask what duty. The drill was run and gun with an HK MP5 on full auto. I watched Steve training the Major who despite a clear high level of athletic ability, wasn’t hitting targets at close range after running, rolling and firing. Steve asked me if I’d like to try. While I was distinguished with the service rifle my experience with full auto weapons was limited to a few hundred rounds at stationary targets, and floating objects at sea… So there I was, about to embarrass myself! Nope, didn’t happen. I’d do the run, roll, and come up behind a barricade to quickly put a burst of automatic fire into a small group near the center of the silhouette targets. Steve handed me another magazine and I put more rounds on target thanks to instinctive sight alignment and trigger control, despite not having any natural point of aim. During this Steve was using me as a training demonstration so that the Major could see how a less coordinated person could indeed succeed in the training. The moral is to ingrain the fundamentals into your subconscious until they become an automated reflex when challenged such as in defensive firing or action pistol.
The above babbling stated, I’m probably never going to win the National Trophy Individual or Bianchi Cup but I do have my personal goals toward which I continue to strive for. Action shooting would be fun but to do well at it I’d recommend mastering the fundamentals of marksmanship. Then strive to master the unique fundamentals required for action shooting.
Another story is that an Internationally Distinguished (small bore rifle) friend of mine spent time at the Olympic Training Center teaching Biathlon competitors not how to ski, or to quickly lower their heartbeats, but of the fundamentals such as sight alignment, trigger control, and natural point of aim.
For what its worth,
Mark
Bullseye, precision pistol is the application of one trying to master and display the proper use of the fundamentals of marksmanship. The same applies for across the course high power rifle, small bore rifle, air, and so. Although one may achieve decent score at the run-n-gun action shooting disciplines, those persons would probably score higher in the long run had they first mastered the fundamentals. Another poster wrote that Marksman classification in bullseye provided this to which I do not fully agree. It is however a great start. I think shooters reach and remain at levels because they are lacking mastery of some part of the fundamentals. Myself included…
Action shooting is fun, pure fun! But to be good at it one must put in the hours of practice. How would an action shooter do in bullseye against a bullseye shooter firing action pistol? Much would depend on the shooters. If an action shooter and a bullseye shooter both shot both disciplines for a friendly competition, who would win? That would probably depend on the shooters but statistically would the results be even? Steve Huff of Accuracy X is the only person to earn distinguished in both action and service pistol. Look it up. He’s also distinguished in rifle and three other disciplines. Long ago Steve mastered the fundamentals of marksmanship.
For myself, I’d love to compete in action pistol but with a metal joint and arthritis pain whenever the weather changes I’ll stick with bullseye for pistol competition. But in the early 90’s while saying hello to an old friend at Weapons Training Battalion, Quantico, I got to demonstrate real action shooting, counter terrorism tactics.
The story is an old friend Steve, a Range Officer at WTB, was training a Marine Major who was preparing for some type of “special duty” in South America. I could read between the lines and didn’t ask what duty. The drill was run and gun with an HK MP5 on full auto. I watched Steve training the Major who despite a clear high level of athletic ability, wasn’t hitting targets at close range after running, rolling and firing. Steve asked me if I’d like to try. While I was distinguished with the service rifle my experience with full auto weapons was limited to a few hundred rounds at stationary targets, and floating objects at sea… So there I was, about to embarrass myself! Nope, didn’t happen. I’d do the run, roll, and come up behind a barricade to quickly put a burst of automatic fire into a small group near the center of the silhouette targets. Steve handed me another magazine and I put more rounds on target thanks to instinctive sight alignment and trigger control, despite not having any natural point of aim. During this Steve was using me as a training demonstration so that the Major could see how a less coordinated person could indeed succeed in the training. The moral is to ingrain the fundamentals into your subconscious until they become an automated reflex when challenged such as in defensive firing or action pistol.
The above babbling stated, I’m probably never going to win the National Trophy Individual or Bianchi Cup but I do have my personal goals toward which I continue to strive for. Action shooting would be fun but to do well at it I’d recommend mastering the fundamentals of marksmanship. Then strive to master the unique fundamentals required for action shooting.
Another story is that an Internationally Distinguished (small bore rifle) friend of mine spent time at the Olympic Training Center teaching Biathlon competitors not how to ski, or to quickly lower their heartbeats, but of the fundamentals such as sight alignment, trigger control, and natural point of aim.
For what its worth,
Mark
I didn't intend to start an us-vs-them argument when I began this thread. I have nothing against people who enjoy the "run-n-gun" game, cowboy action shooting or even (shutter) skeet shooting. I was just venting over the loss of interest in the more traditional shooting sports. I took up F-class because no one was shooting NMC any more. I don't know any club that sponsors NRA smallbore rifle in my area. Maybe I'm just out-of-step with the times. Getting old.
-NRA Precision Pistol has 5 skill levels by classifications, making it hard to compete head to head . Even worse with small groups of people at local clubs.
This handicap system worked for years in the 70 and 80's.
At age 72, not much Bullseye in my neck of the woods these days.
http://s338.photobucket.com/user/jo...arms and Reloading/Bullseye Scoring System
This handicap system worked for years in the 70 and 80's.
At age 72, not much Bullseye in my neck of the woods these days.
Mark Ouellette
Silver $$ Contributor
Video games on pocket miracles (smart phones), You Tube, social media and all that comes with a new century can't be stopped. Maybe precision shooting be it rifle pr pistol should offer alternatives as a fundamental program to those whose desire to to shoot action disciplines? For instance, a class for NRA Action Pistols in bullseye. Bring that double stack optic sighted rig to the 50 yd slow fire and 25 timed and rapid. Add a sub class for 2-handed shooters and presto! We've got a cross over discipline in which the younger action-packed guys and gals will be seeking training in fundamental from the bullseye crowd.
A gunsmith and F-Class competitor passed the story of how F-Class began with an aging shooter requesting to shoot the match with a scope and rest but not for score. Soon others joined him and... Add to that the F Class Tactical Rifle (F-TR) for 7.62 and 5.56 only and suddenly a new discipline has an "open" anything goes, and playing field leveler (F-TR) classes. Bring out the heavy barreled AR or old Palma gun and shoot well! I see the NRA also has Full Bore competition for 7.62 with 155 grain (Palma) bullets only. Good additions for many a shooter.
So we adapt and overcome or fade away. Heck, I'd invite an action shooter to the bullseye range and let them shoot two handed. Drawing a loaded weapon on a bullseye range would however need considerable review. Let them start from a one handed low pistol on the bench and go to their two handed shooting. If they need to empty their magazine at 25 yards who cares as long as they are safe. It would be good practice for them and also help to defer the costs of running a bullseye range. After the Bianchi crowd gets dialed in on 25 and 50 yard targets I bet they will shoot better in their competition.
Racing and shooting is in the same boat .
Money is the big part . Too much or the lack of . When shooting years ago we made everything . Or figured a way to use what we had . It has stayed that way with some . I think it is called Old school .
Shooting the difference is all about weight and speed . Racing is the same weight and speed . Take raceing the car has a weight rule with the driver . Minimum weight Is 3100 lb with a maximum of 56% left side A stock camero Can make that weight . One problem is the weight is not in the correct place to go fast . And the car is a unibody . Now they allow you to make a tubing frame . Sound fair doesn't it . Its not . Where and how high the weight is Is the difference . So the 20 or so Old school cars stay home . The 6 or 8 new ida cars race . Guess what The race tracks don't have people and the classs don't have cars .
Sound the same as shooting . Larry
Pm if you want to remain anonymous. 
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
This^^^
In a current society where the media would like to put gun owners in the same group as perverts and sex offenders I'm just glad we have new shooters wanting to compete in any discipline.
I don't get the "my discipline is better than yours" mentality. I shot IPSC and IDPA and a high level 20+ years ago. It didn't take me long to figure out LOTS of slow fire accuracy practice was necessary to before I could go fast. I shot 700-800 rounds a week in practice (single and had money at the time) and 70% was slow fire.
What I have found is that all of the diciplines I've shot over the years all relate. Rifle, pistol, shotgun. The more disciplines you shoot the more it all relates and makes you a better shooter overall!!
This is exactly what I was talking about. It's pretty convenient that you have the EXACT amount of experience required to have a valid opinion. 30 years is irrelevant, so is 40....20 years ago would you have considered your own opinion irrelevant?
If someone has 60 years' experience on here, are you now irrelevant?
I am sure your attitude on the range is wonderful for making new shooters feel welcome. I'm glad when I recently re-started competing after a 20+ year hiatus (from formal competition, not shooting) that I lucked upon a humble and welcoming group of guys.
And thanks savagedasher for the tip on the ignore feature.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Sorry for the thread jack, but this is a pet peeve .....
Not sure what you are referring to here. F-TR stands for F- Target Rifle as in a Target Rifle as defined in the ICFRA rules. It has nothing to do with anything Tactical unless the tactical situation requires that I drag out my 18# single shot rifle with the 30" barrel, assemble the competition bipod, and find the target with my 55 power scope. Did I mention the 20# rear bag?
The type of rifle that George Farquharson used would have been more akin to a Palma rifle than anything "tactical".
Not sure what you are referring to here. F-TR stands for F- Target Rifle as in a Target Rifle as defined in the ICFRA rules. It has nothing to do with anything Tactical unless the tactical situation requires that I drag out my 18# single shot rifle with the 30" barrel, assemble the competition bipod, and find the target with my 55 power scope. Did I mention the 20# rear bag?
The type of rifle that George Farquharson used would have been more akin to a Palma rifle than anything "tactical".
Experience is great! One can learn alot. However just because someone has been doing something a long time doesn't necessarily mean they have been doing it right, or learned anything useful. Just because a person takes an instructor's course, it doesn't make him an instructor. I am always hesitant when anyone uses a time line or certificate to imply that they are knowledgeable. A perfect example is a Chicago police firearms instructor who taught that if you are searching a dark building (apartment or otherwise) you should fire a round off and use the muzzle flash to light up the area and you can find someone who is hiding in the dark. How many levels of wrong is this????
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