Venting: No one wants to shoot NRA precision pistol. :(

[snert]

I think after reviewing this thread that the point of all this is that times change, equipment changes, opportunity changes, interests change and shooting changes with it. Sometimes our equipment and ranges become dated relics of past interests and sadly become moribund. If things stayed the "same" we would all still be shooting Schuetzen and hundreds of people would come to spectate,newspapers would publish results, and we could drink beer and eat schnitzel after the big finale.

instead, we drop our carry pistol and large cap mags into nylon bags, take off our electronic hearing protection, start up our computer driven trucks, drive away to our LED lit houses and eat grilled salmon and salad, a healthy drink and head to the gym.

OP, sorry that your range is the limiting factor, but if you want interest, change the facility. or continue on doing what you are doing and enjoy the club within its limitations. Nothing wrong with that. (and I say this as a guy who does not "compete" because I find that more arguments take place over the rules, making it all no fun, and as a guy who still likes walnut stocks, single shot 40X's, old lever guns and gasp...Stevens single shot 22's. I even carry a revolver after years of carrying a polymer whiz bang for "practical shooting"...to protect my life and others) So I am not at all hi speed, low drag...more low speed, and too worn out to do anything but stand and fight. I do like a pistol range that is nearly 360 degrees and allows for creativity. However, learning to shoot accurately with a handgun was my first step. after that came speed and movement. For that reason I took top gun in my academy class using a 686, and ended my career with the fastest and most accurate "practical/tactical qualification course in the 2011 Dept spring qualification, using a Glock. The longest shot was a Q hit on a Q target, 40 yards, while the shortest was a 7 yard dueling tree, cleaned in six. Accuracy and speed. And darn satisfying for an old fart.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Well, because all of the "practical" shooting disciplines that I have ever seen focus on human silhouette targets, and scenarios involving humans. Do you guys run raccoon and snake stages at the clubs where you shoot matches?

I dispatched an injured snake at the gun club last Sunday with the machete I keep in my truck. Never even practiced!

Two hands vs. one is the big issue. Also gotta draw and fire reasonably quickly. Of course, no analogy is perfect. But two hands is more practical than one. Dishonest to keep ignoring that. But ignorance is revealed.

Steel challenge is the favorite among my peeps and I. Those targets could be anything.

 

[powderbrake]

I agree with the original title " no one wants to shoot NRA precision pistol. I believe because it's difficult, and your initial scores are lousy. It's more fun to run & gun on a steel target that makes noise.

I have found that when I let someone shoot my bullseye pistols, a S&W Model 52, a S&W Model 41, and a Colt Gold Cup, they are amazed at the accuracy and trigger pull. The Model 52 action is like it's running in whipped cream. When they compare them to their Glocks, S&W's and HK's etc, they discover what really fine guns are like.

That being said, fast shooting and steel targets are FUN, and I doubt we will get the younger generations to start shooting Bullseye. That's OK, things change, so join the youngsters and have fun. You can always go to the range and shoot Bullseye, after all it's really about the score , and you are competing with yourself.

 

[Erud]

Two hands vs. one is the big issue. Also gotta draw and fire reasonably quickly. Of course, no analogy is perfect. But two hands is more practical than one. Dishonest to keep ignoring that. But ignorance is revealed.

Steel challenge is the favorite among my peeps and I. Those targets could be anything.

No dishonesty here. Run and gun matches where you run through stages shooting at human silhouettes and steel targets do not teach practical skills, but why should they have to? The game is fun, so playing it is it's own reward. It's a hobby, and I think a lot of shooters lose sight of that. Why does a game need to have some application in real life in order to be worth playing? What other hobbies do people place this weird criteria on? I can't think of any.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

No dishonesty here. Run and gun matches where you run through stages shooting at human silhouettes and steel targets do not teach practical skills, but why should they have to? The game is fun, so playing it is it's own reward. It's a hobby, and I think a lot of shooters lose sight of that. Why does a game need to have some application in real life in order to be worth playing? What other hobbies do people place this weird criteria on? I can't think of any.

You have your reasons, I have mine. Free country. The peeps I hang with prefer practical skills. Sorry if you are blind to that. Not everyone thinks like you. Thank God for that.

Bullseye is not a fun game for many. So lacking practical applications, no interest for us.

 

[ryanjay11]

Folks concerned with the "practicality" of a discipline are often the same ones unhappy with other competitors equipment, even when it clearly falls within defined rules.

 

[snert]

In a pissing match the bigger weener wins. See that, it all comes down to an equipment race!

 

[mongo chicago]

It's a conundrum. It's good to have new shooting sports but sad when an old one fades away. I participated in NRA bullseye pistol, high powered rifle, 1,000 yard h.p. rifle, IDPA, combat matches, trap, sporting clays, etc. I am currently back to bullseye pistol, but too old and decrepit to do well. Not that I was that good to begin with. But I had fun. Now days its is as much about athleticism as it is shooting skills.

 

[SWRichmond]

The so called practical games do not teach marksmanship. No one IMO learns sight picture, shot calling, or trigger control shooting as fast as possible, using an autoloading rifle, at large targets placed closely. Beginners can't pick up a gun and be Jerry Miculek. But it is fun, at least in part, because you hit what you're shooting at (it's ten yards away) and get to go home thinking you're Wyatt Earp. I have had discussions with these guys at my club and to a man they couldn't care less about accuracy. It doesn't matter. I almost wish Jerry would stop making those videos. But I know, the sponsors...

The harder disciplines are discouraging at first for newcomers; you get to find out how bad a shot you really are, and how much work you have to do.

To each his own. I am very grateful for all the time spent shooting highpower, PPC, Bullseye, and so on. You know, fundamentals.

 

[TRA]

Two hands vs. one is the big issue. Also gotta draw and fire reasonably quickly. Of course, no analogy is perfect. But two hands is more practical than one. Dishonest to keep ignoring that. But ignorance is revealed.

Steel challenge is the favorite among my peeps and I. Those targets could be anything.

Enough with the 2 handed nonsense....we get it really. The issue is about today's crowd looking at firearms as toys and new shooters are being brainwashed into believing it's just a benefit of the times. I don't care how you hold your pistol as long as you and those you supposedly train do it in a way that is accepted as safe to them and all around them.

A lot of these shoot'em up ranges are having rounds leaving the premises and people are using that to put us out of business.

The NRA has gotten themselves into a pickle by bending over and endorsing the current trend that guns are toys, to be used any way you please.

If you can't handle a pistol safely and with great accuracy within it's effective parameters, you need more practice. Using two hands vs one is a silly argument.

 

[ljmontano]

Never move faster then you can shoot accurately or process information find your front sight and get multiple rounds down range and eliminate your threats.
Or stand on the X and die. I know for a fact that the USPSA shooters are not putting 148 grain wad cutters down range.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

If you can't handle a pistol safely and with great accuracy within it's effective parameters, you need more practice. Using two hands vs one is a silly argument.

To me it's about a shooter knowing their limitations. The NRA Pistol Marksmanship qualification includes enough one handed pistol work for shooters to get a start improving their one handed shooting skills, but also to soberly assess the differences between one and two handed shooting.

For people with two hands, requiring them to only use one is an unnecessary and unrealistic handicap. It doesn't make any more sense that a rifle contest standing on one leg.

But you are right, most shooters I know do need more pistol practice. We go to the range regularly and shoot a variety of events: steel challenge, action pistol, NRA Marksmanship qualification. And yes, we even shot a couple Bullseye events this year. The consensus was that the other events were productive and interesting enough to do again, but not the Bullseye. God gave us two hands and we intend to use them.

 

[GlockamoleTX]

Started shooting practical/IPSC back in the early 80's when the sport was young and we mostly shot 5" 1911's in 45 cap. My local club had a fairly active NRA bullseye pistol group with a number of them having a lot of heart burn sharing their club with the practical shooters (who at the same time outnumbered bullseye shooters 5:1). But overall mostly really nice guys....and skilled. I worked at the sport really hard, learned from a couple of world champs, picked up a few sponsors and had a great experience until I decided the equipment wars were enough. However, one of the best things I did was seek help from my neighbor who was a very accomplished bullseye shooter. I spent a good deal of time practicing my accuracy at the longer distances, mastering strong hand, weak hand, etc.... and many times this was the deciding factor on a successful match finish. You see quite a few shooters today who go fast and look good from about 15 yards in but may lack the true core/well rounded skills. Still today I have a lot of respect for the bullseye pistol shooters and their skills and appreciate the fact that they helped me along in my development.

 

[SWRichmond]

Two hands vs. one is the big issue. Also gotta draw and fire reasonably quickly. Of course, no analogy is perfect. But two hands is more practical than one. Dishonest to keep ignoring that. But ignorance is revealed.

Steel challenge is the favorite among my peeps and I. Those targets could be anything.

You have your reasons, I have mine. Free country. The peeps I hang with prefer practical skills. Sorry if you are blind to that. Not everyone thinks like you. Thank God for that.

Bullseye is not a fun game for many. So lacking practical applications, no interest for us.

Emphasis added.

So indulge me this side bar, your having called us dishonest and ignorant. You assert that drawing and firing quickly is "practical", and that you and your "peeps" prefer these "practical" skills. Does it occur to you that the practicality of these skills is limited? And by that I mean limited to drawing and firing quickly at something close? Can any of you hit with a pistol anything which is 25 yards away? 50 yards? 100 yards? Further? How do you define your practicality, and what are its limits? It seems to me your practicality is limited to one specific environment. And how practical is that, really?

Would it be more honest for your to simply say "we like shooting fast at things which are close"?

 

[SWRichmond]

However, learning to shoot accurately with a handgun was my first step.

I can't begin to tell you how much I concur (and how glad I am that I, too, have an attention span). I spent countless hours in my home dry firing my Gold Cup. More countless hours in bullseye matches. More countless hours shooting .22 pistol (HS Victor, fabulous trigger). The sights and the trigger and I are old old friends, and that skill is adaptable to any shooting sport. I am eternally grateful I took the time to learn that FIRST.

It turns out to have been a very practical thing to do.

 

[GlockamoleTX]

It's a free market, and shooters vote with their feet and their entry fees.

I prefer to view most target shooting as some kind of practice for some practical purpose of RKBA other than punching paper. The one handed nature of Bullseye kinda sinks it for me. There just are not many practical (RKBA) applications of pistol shooting where such an emphasis is placed on one hand shooting.

I've taught a bunch of people to shoot pistol. We start with the NRA Basic Pistol materials, work through the pistol marksmanship qualification program which includes a nice split between one handed and two handed work with both strong and weak hands. For students who want to go further, we have a look at Bullseye style one handed shooting, and we also have a look at the NRA marksmanship qualification programs in Defensive Pistol 1 and 2.

Without fail, students prefer to work on the Defensive Pistol side, which at some point generates interest in the action pistol disciplines (NRA Action Pistol, Steel Challenge, IDPA, etc.) It's not so much about the adrenaline of those competitions (many prefer private practice), it's about the fact that the defensive uses of pistols are seen as much more likely applications than holding a pistol in one hand and having to hit a small target at Bullseye distance. Allowing two hands would likely generate much greater interest. But that ship has likely sailed.

On the whole, I'mm happy to see growing numbers of shooters, whatever the discipline they fancy.

Everyone has a preference, and for me the Steel Challenge was the ultimate..... Speed, accuracy and managing self control without going over the edge. Made it to LA from '83 through '87 for this event and still and have great memories of those times. Mike

 

[Berger.Fan222]

You assert that drawing and firing quickly is "practical", and that you and your "peeps" prefer these "practical" skills. Does it occur to you that the practicality of these skills is limited? And by that I mean limited to drawing and firing quickly at something close? Can any of you hit with a pistol anything which is 25 yards away? 50 yards? 100 yards? Further? How do you define your practicality, and what are its limits? It seems to me your practicality is limited to one specific environment. And how practical is that, really?

Would it be more honest for your to simply say "we like shooting fast at things which are close"?

Each shooter decides what their practical needs and applications are. My longest pistol shot on a varmint was 150 yards. More common pistol shots on varmints and deer are 25 yards and under. Steel challenge has lots of opportunities for combining speed and accuracy inside of 25 yards. I haven't measured the distances in the other action pistol disciplines.

But in most cases a combination of the competitions, NRA Marksmanship Qualifications and less formal target practice at longer ranges, most of our needs for practice and skill development are met. I like the Bullseye targets, and we often use the Bullseye targets for practice at extended ranges. But we use two hands most of the time, because most of the practical pistol applications allow two hands, and it is neither effective nor recommended to handicap oneself by shooting at a deer or varmint with only one hand.

My "practical" skill set is defined more by rural life (farm, ranch, swamp, woods) than by IDPA or Action Pistol, which I view more as venues for interesting practice, though I prefer Steel Challenge and an unsanctioned (non NRA) action pistol event at a local club. My students have lots of varied needs and interests which they view as "practical" for them. I've trained law enforcement and military. I've trained CHL holders. I've trained guys with rural interests very similar to mine.

I don't tend to emphasize speed. I emphasize accuracy. The only speed I need is fast enough to kill a deer or varmint before the target of opportunity disappears. If the target of opportunity is more than 50 yards away, there is usually time to get the rifle from the tractor or truck. There are the occasional snake encounters where one wishes for a bit more speed, but with enough years in snake country, one learns to buy time by repositioning during the draw.

I've also carried concealed for many years, but as mentioned above, odds of needing a pistol for self-defense are slim. But my practical training for those potential uses is far more extensive than most CHL holders and also exceeds most military and law enforcement. Sound tactical principles of time, distance, and cover are more important than the gamesmanship approaches to shavings tenths of a second in action pistol events. When my friends and I participate in those, we use real carry pistols in our real carry holsters.

In sum, other than shooting at paper targets with one hand, my pistol training is very thorough. I encourage my friends, family, and students to comparable levels of training and proficiency.

 

[Bob3700]

Times do change. We now have a kiosk with pictures of Big Macs that provide change because the people working the counter can't do simple math without a calculator.
Want to fail college students today, ask them what eight times six is without using the calculator on their cell phone.
All of the systems have been dumbed down where critical thinking is not required. Go to a range that provides sight-in services in deer season. It will scare u.
Bullseye pistol n NRA HP rifle take discipline, time, and skill to master. U can't just write the check, buy the top equipment and be competitive. Results from ur efforts are a progression, not immediate.
The world changes everyday, some for the better n some not so much. That's probably just " Old Guy" talk!

 

[XTR]

Really sucks that people have lost interest in BPCR too. (We need another Quiggly movie)


As soon as someone made up a game where you got to use both hands and move your feet NRA pistol was doomed. Saw that in the 80s when I started shooting USPSA/IPSC.

Service Rifle is trying to avoid extinction and to the chagrin of the "not the way I learned it" crowd has decided to allow optics (those things with glass in them that were invented in the 19th century)

At some point Service Rife also decided to allow something other than wood guns, and cartridges other than 30-06!

Once upon a time one of the biggest pissing matches in shooting was whether or not you could patch between shots with a breach loader. (you gotta look at your Creedmoor history to understand that one)

Things change. I'm in my mid 50s, I'm still adapting and playing. (and some of the new things appeal to me)

 

[spaniel]

It's sad to see a community with a common interest in maintaining access to firearms and the right to pursue the shooting sports crap on each other because they prefer different games.

If you're going to dig on the younger generation across the board as lazier or dumber because they think differently than you, remember your predecessors thought the same things about you. It's not new to this generation. Be glad when you see a young shooter on the line, offer what help you can, and hope they stay in and help sustain our shooting sports....even it it's not the one(s) that draw you.