Venting: No one wants to shoot NRA precision pistol. :(

[DRNewcomb]

I know this a mostly rifle-related forum but I need to vent. I'm a member of a nice shooting club with some decent facilities. We have skeet, trap, archery, 7 ranges for rifle and pistol between 30 and 300 yards. We have NSSA sanctioned skeet, ATA sanctioned trap, USPSA, 3-gun, Cowboy Action shooting, 4H, IR 50/50, etc, etc. What we don't have is a single NRA-sanctioned shooting competition. After reviewing the available facilities, rules & range restrictions, I decided to propose starting a small bore-NRA Precision Pistol league. Talked it up, asked around, sought out the opinions of other members. End result: I'm dropping the idea. No one is interested. Out of about 1100 members, I can't find 10 or 15 who want to shoot old-fashioned bullseye pistol.

One of the old shooters, who used to shoot NRA 2700 pistol, told me that all the younger guys want to shoot real fast a short range where athleticism and speed count more than accuracy.

Before anyone suggests other disciplines, you need to understand that I really did consider the facility's limitations. There are certain restrictions, the most serious of which are fixed target boards set at various and sundry ranges and fixed cement shooting benches. Any other discipline would require digging up and moving the target boards and maybe removing the beloved shooting benches. Also, some ranges can only be used for .22 rimfire.

 

[swd]

One of the old shooters, who used to shoot NRA 2700 pistol, told me that all the younger guys want to shoot real fast a short range where athleticism and speed count more than accuracy.

Before I even made it to this part of your post that's exactly what I was thinking. Good, bad or otherwise, younger shooters are the future of our firearm sports. I can seen some disciplines getting phased out from lack of interest and other newer ones replacing them. It's unfortunate but people only have so much time and money to devote and they're going to choose the diciplines they enjoy the most.

I believe a huge part of it comes from the fast pace of our current society and the mind set it has created. It takes a different mind set to get great satisfaction from slow fire bullseye shooting vs running a course balls to the wall and the instant adrenaline rush it creates.

Look at everything we do. If you can't get ahold of someone instantly on their cell phone we wonder why they didn't answer. We Google answers to thousands of questions in seconds rather than driving to the library or doing other kinds of research. Text someone and we expect a text back. We watch movies on demand etc. etc...

Our lives have changed more dramatically in the last 20-40 years than probably the last 500 combined. And life and the way we 50+ year olds think is very different than younger generations. It's unfortunate that younger generations will never know what they've lost in so many ways.

That's probably enough rambling, I miss a lot of the old days too!

 

[savagedasher]

Before I even made it to this part of your post that's exactly what I was thinking. Good, bad or otherwise, younger shooters are the future of our firearm sports. I can seen some disciplines getting phased out from lack of interest and other newer ones replacing them. It's unfortunate but people only have so much time and money to devote and they're going to choose the diciplines they enjoy the most.

I believe a huge part of it comes from the fast pace of our current society and the mind set it has created. It takes a different mind set to get great satisfaction from slow fire bullseye shooting vs running a course balls to the wall and the instant adrenaline rush it creates.

Look at everything we do. If you can't get ahold of someone instantly on their cell phone we wonder why they didn't answer. We Google answers to thousands of questions in seconds rather than driving to the library or doing other kinds of research. Text someone and we expect a text back. We watch movies on demand etc. etc...

Our lives have changed more dramatically in the last 20-40 years than probably the last 500 combined. And life and the way we 50+ year olds think is very different than younger generations. It's unfortunate that younger generations will never know what they've lost in so many ways.

That's probably enough rambling, I miss a lot of the old days too!

I can relate to what is being said . I feel the same about shooting .
How the sport has changed . Skill has be replaced with money To be competive you must have the lightest weight Scope and action .You must Be able to shoot 10 shots in 15 second . The the stock and rest must be perfect. Gone are the days when you had to be able to read the conditions and correct your aim .
I and other worked years to where we had 18 to 22 shooters shooting for fun . 3 or so new shooters wanted a weight limit on the guns . Theycryed about some savage guns that were homade . With the weight limit the only made 16 or more guns obsolete . Now we or I should say they have 6 shooters .
By the way The one that cried the most moved out of the state .
Good luck on your shooting endeavor. Larry

 

[DRNewcomb]

.....You must Be able to shoot 10 shots in 15 second .....

(Aside) I was once at an RSO meeting where we were discussing SOPs for the different ranges at the club. Someone proposed a rule that one rifle range would be "no rapid fire". I piped up that "rapid fire" is defined as 10 rounds in 60 seconds. Everyone looked at me like I had two heads and informed me in no uncertain terms that "rapid fire" meant as fast as you could pull the trigger. If the suggestion had gone any farther I'd have pulled out some NRA rule books to show them. Can you say "Culture Clash"?

 

[TRA]

(Aside) I was once at an RSO meeting where we were discussing SOPs for the different ranges at the club. Someone proposed a rule that one rifle range would be "no rapid fire". I piped up that "rapid fire" is defined as 10 rounds in 60 seconds. Everyone looked at me like I had two heads and informed me in no uncertain terms that "rapid fire" meant as fast as you could pull the trigger. If the suggestion had gone any farther I'd have pulled out some NRA rule books to show them. Can you say "Culture Clash"?

In Bullseye, "Rapid" is 5 shots in ten seconds, which seems like eternity after you get used to it.

Benchrest style shooting is getting the same message. When you see an action or rifle for sale, the first question is, "what mags does it take". Times are changing and everything's going rattle battle. Even the military gave up trying to train conserving ammo. It's really hard to point a finger at the reason to spray bullets as military, law enforcement, tacticools.... are all into volumes of fire. Run and gun is what is in vogue today. Seems that goes against the grain of instilling safe gun handling to the masses. But if the ranges went back to "NO RUNNING ON THIS RANGE", people would go elsewhere.

Anyone miss the DCM, yet?

 

[Berger.Fan222]

It's a free market, and shooters vote with their feet and their entry fees.

I prefer to view most target shooting as some kind of practice for some practical purpose of RKBA other than punching paper. The one handed nature of Bullseye kinda sinks it for me. There just are not many practical (RKBA) applications of pistol shooting where such an emphasis is placed on one hand shooting.

I've taught a bunch of people to shoot pistol. We start with the NRA Basic Pistol materials, work through the pistol marksmanship qualification program which includes a nice split between one handed and two handed work with both strong and weak hands. For students who want to go further, we have a look at Bullseye style one handed shooting, and we also have a look at the NRA marksmanship qualification programs in Defensive Pistol 1 and 2.

Without fail, students prefer to work on the Defensive Pistol side, which at some point generates interest in the action pistol disciplines (NRA Action Pistol, Steel Challenge, IDPA, etc.) It's not so much about the adrenaline of those competitions (many prefer private practice), it's about the fact that the defensive uses of pistols are seen as much more likely applications than holding a pistol in one hand and having to hit a small target at Bullseye distance. Allowing two hands would likely generate much greater interest. But that ship has likely sailed.

On the whole, I'mm happy to see growing numbers of shooters, whatever the discipline they fancy.

 

[ljmontano]

Atari vs Xbox?

 

[DRNewcomb]

In Bullseye, "Rapid" is 5 shots in ten seconds, which seems like eternity after you get used to it.
.....................
Anyone miss the DCM, yet?

In NMC rifle it's 60 seconds for 10 rounds with a reload, which never seemed like an eternity to me. My point on that particular side story is that the definitions of "rapid" and "slow" seem to have grown feet.

I miss the DCM whenever I think about the subject. I'll be cleaning my rifles 'till the day I die with all the patches I bought from them in the '80s.

 

[Erud]

It's a free market, and shooters vote with their feet and their entry fees.

I prefer to view most target shooting as some kind of practice for some practical purpose of RKBA other than punching paper. The one handed nature of Bullseye kinda sinks it for me. There just are not many practical (RKBA) applications of pistol shooting where such an emphasis is placed on one hand shooting.

The use of the word "practical" implies that the skills will be useful in normal life. When's the last time you shot someone? The shooting sports are games, just like any other hobby. Knowing how to defend yourself with a firearm is certainly a noble pursuit, but the idea that it is somehow a "practical" skill is just not realistic. The odds are probably about equal of you fending off a home invader with a 9-iron if you were a really good golfer.

If you really want to do something practical to improve your chances of living longer, take up running.

 

[Medic505]

Atari vs Xbox?

It goes farther back than that LJ. Reality is checkers vs xbox. I still prefer checkers.

 

[DRNewcomb]

...... Knowing how to defend yourself with a firearm is certainly a noble pursuit, but the idea that it is somehow a "practical" skill is just not realistic. ...

"Practical" for me would mean being able to take out an adversary at a range where he couldn't even see me.

If you really want to do something practical to improve your chances of living longer, take up running.

Didn't help my cousin, who was an habitual runner and lived just two years longer than his father. He claimed running would help him live to 100. Know a guy who was hit so hard by a car while running that his wrist watch was found 30' away from where he landed. Walking or rowing are much better.

 

[Erud]

"Practical" for me would mean being able to take out an adversary at a range where he couldn't even see me.
Didn't help my cousin, who was an habitual runner and lived just two years longer than his father. He claimed running would help him live to 100. Know a guy who was hit so hard by a car while running that his wrist watch was found 30' away from where he landed. Walking or rowing are much better.

Ok, but the word "practical" has an actual definition, regardless of what you want it to mean. As for your cousin, there are always exceptions that prove the rule. I think you get my point though, practicing or competing in shooting sports will almost never actually do you any good real life, while trying to maintain some level of health and fitness almost always will.


prac·ti·cal
ˈpraktək(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something rather than with theory and ideas.
   "there are two obvious practical applications of the research"
   synonyms: empirical, hands-on, actual, active, applied, heuristic, experiential, evidence-based
   "practical experience"

1. 2.
   so nearly the case that it can be regarded as so; virtual.
   "it was a practical certainty that he would try to raise more money"
   synonyms: virtual, effective, near
   "a practical certainty"

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I can relate to what is being said . I feel the same about shooting .
How the sport has changed . Skill has be replaced with money To be competive you must have the lightest weight Scope and action .You must Be able to shoot 10 shots in 15 second . The the stock and rest must be perfect. Gone are the days when you had to be able to read the conditions and correct your aim .
I and other worked years to where we had 18 to 22 shooters shooting for fun . 3 or so new shooters wanted a weight limit on the guns . Theycryed about some savage guns that were homade . With the weight limit the only made 16 or more guns obsolete . Now we or I should say they have 6 shooters .
By the way The one that cried the most moved out of the state .
Good luck on your shooting endeavor. Larry

Larry, no one cared what make the guns were. The rules came as we started to shoot mock IBS matches with the intent of shooting real IBS sanctioned matches. Mike decided he liked the rules and wanted to implement them in your gong matches too. Actually, it was a lot of your friends, guys who went to your church that quietly came to me and said they thought it was un fair to have to shoot their almost factory rifle against you guys with your 6" wide heavy guns. I personally didnt care too much. My intention was to get everyone to make use of their Benchrest equipment and shoot Benchrest. What kind of person builds a full blown Benchrest rifle to shoot gongs? Thats a repeater/bipod kind of thing. To each his own I guess.

If you think you can win at 1k or 600 with money are really are losing your marbles...

(sorry for the off topic post, but I had to reply)

 

[Jdne5b]

It's a free market, and shooters vote with their feet and their entry fees.

I prefer to view most target shooting as some kind of practice for some practical purpose of RKBA other than punching paper. The one handed nature of Bullseye kinda sinks it for me. There just are not many practical (RKBA) applications of pistol shooting where such an emphasis is placed on one hand shooting.

I've taught a bunch of people to shoot pistol. We start with the NRA Basic Pistol materials, work through the pistol marksmanship qualification program which includes a nice split between one handed and two handed work with both strong and weak hands. For students who want to go further, we have a look at Bullseye style one handed shooting, and we also have a look at the NRA marksmanship qualification programs in Defensive Pistol 1 and 2.

Without fail, students prefer to work on the Defensive Pistol side, which at some point generates interest in the action pistol disciplines (NRA Action Pistol, Steel Challenge, IDPA, etc.) It's not so much about the adrenaline of those competitions (many prefer private practice), it's about the fact that the defensive uses of pistols are seen as much more likely applications than holding a pistol in one hand and having to hit a small target at Bullseye distance. Allowing two hands would likely generate much greater interest. But that ship has likely sailed.

On the whole, I'mm happy to see growing numbers of shooters, whatever the discipline they fancy.

Although I agree with most of your post, whats so defensive or practical about NRA Action Pistol?


I also think that in the other games, its very easy to be good, or to be a big fish in a small pond. Its easier to get good in some of the spray and pray games. With the number of divisions and classes, the self gratification is easier to obtain.

Its not easy for most people to be really good in High Power, Bullseye, PPC, etc.

 

[savagedasher]

Larry, no one cared what make the guns were. The rules came as we started to shoot mock IBS matches with the intent of shooting real IBS sanctioned matches. Mike decided he liked the rules and wanted to implement them in your gong matches too. Actually, it was a lot of your friends, guys who went to your church that quietly came to me and said they thought it was un fair to have to shoot their almost factory rifle against you guys with your 6" wide heavy guns. I personally didnt care too much. My intention was to get everyone to make use of their Benchrest equipment and shoot Benchrest. What kind of person builds a full blown Benchrest rifle to shoot gongs? Thats a repeater/bipod kind of thing. To each his own I guess.

If you think you can win at 1k or 600 with money are really are losing your marbles...

(sorry for the off topic post, but I had to reply)

Alex
Common guy I cared what kind of gun I shot along with many others . My choice was savage along with many others .
I knew It wasn't the action that won .
I also knew it wasn't the 6"wide homade stock . The crying was all about savage guns with a Mc. Gowen barrel

Larry, no one cared what make the guns were. The rules came as we started to shoot mock IBS matches with the intent of shooting real IBS sanctioned matches. Mike decided he liked the rules and wanted to implement them in your gong matches too. Actually, it was a lot of your friends, guys who went to your church that quietly came to me and said they thought it was un fair to have to shoot their almost factory rifle against you guys with your 6" wide heavy guns. I personally didnt care too much. My intention was to get everyone to make use of their Benchrest equipment and shoot Benchrest. What kind of person builds a full blown Benchrest rifle to shoot gongs? Thats a repeater/bipod kind of thing. To each his own I guess.

If you think you can win at 1k or 600 with money are really are losing your marbles...

(sorry for the off topic post, but I had to reply)

i know one thing you Sure can't win without . You can take that to the bank Larry

 

[dmoran]

You reap what you sow...

 

[B Nettesheim]

I remember my first match i competed in and who answered my questions and who offered no advice. What i really remember is who didnt want to offer any help to a new competitor and how discouraged i was. That is what really stuck in my head. Most competitors do offer help and that is what we all need to keep our sport strong and growing no matter the discipline!!! Keep positive no matter what category someone decides to take on.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

The use of the word "practical" implies that the skills will be useful in normal life. When's the last time you shot someone? The shooting sports are games, just like any other hobby. Knowing how to defend yourself with a firearm is certainly a noble pursuit, but the idea that it is somehow a "practical" skill is just not realistic. The odds are probably about equal of you fending off a home invader with a 9-iron if you were a really good golfer.

If you really want to do something practical to improve your chances of living longer, take up running.

Human? Never. Deer with carry pistol? Yes. Groundhogs with carry pistol? Yes. Rabbits with 22 LR pistol? Yes. Snakes with carry pistol? Yes. Raccoons with carry pistol? Yes.

Why does practical use of a pistol have to imply a human target? That's pretty narrow thinking. You need more time in the woods to broaden your horizons.

I also train a lot of younger shooters who may well have military or law enforcement service in their future. Which is more practical for them? Two handed shooting building from the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Defensive Pistol, or Bullseye?

Averaging 50 miles a week on the mountain bike. And you?

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Although I agree with most of your post, whats so defensive or practical about NRA Action Pistol?
View attachment 1008286

I also think that in the other games, its very easy to be good, or to be a big fish in a small pond. Its easier to get good in some of the spray and pray games. With the number of divisions and classes, the self gratification is easier to obtain.

Its not easy for most people to be really good in High Power, Bullseye, PPC, etc.

My peeps and I always shoot the pistol games with real carry pistols. Are we really good? No. But we're better in the practical pistol uses than we would be if we spent the same time and effort in Bullseye.

We shoot F-Class with our hunting and varmint rifles too off of Harris bipods, even in F-Open. We care more about making the shot on the coyote or deer than winning the F-Class match, though we do OK.

I don't mind if others trick out all their equipment for specialized games. But it's a free country, and that's not how I roll.

 

[Erud]

Human? Never. Deer with carry pistol? Yes. Groundhogs with carry pistol? Yes. Rabbits with 22 LR pistol? Yes. Snakes with carry pistol? Yes. Raccoons with carry pistol? Yes.

Why does practical use of a pistol have to imply a human target? That's pretty narrow thinking. You need more time in the woods to broaden your horizons.

Well, because all of the "practical" shooting disciplines that I have ever seen focus on human silhouette targets, and scenarios involving humans. Do you guys run raccoon and snake stages at the clubs where you shoot matches?

I dispatched an injured snake at the gun club last Sunday with the machete I keep in my truck. Never even practiced!