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Velocity Question

Loading up some .308 loads for subsonic use. While looking at the Hodgdon manual was curious. If the load data states
Barrel 24”
Twist: 1:12”

The specific load I am looking at is
H4895, 12.9grains,
FPS: 1057,
20,700PSI

How much different will my velocity be with the folllowing gun set up if I use the same load data listed in the book.
Barrel: 16”
Twist: 1:10”

Thanks.

Travis
 

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Thanks so in short the shorter barrel may be identical or slightly faster? I have a chronograph so I’ll have to check it out. The reason why I was asking was simply curious to know if there was any difference from a Physics perspective
 
Thanks so in short the shorter barrel may be identical or slightly faster? I have a chronograph so I’ll have to check it out. The reason why I was asking was simply curious to know if there was any difference from a Physics perspective
The reason I'm thinking similar speeds or maybe even slightly faster is that low amount of powder charge is going to burn out quickly.

And if it burns out at the 16-20 inch mark, the remaining 4-8" of barrel are just going to increase friction/drag on the bullet and cause it to slow down.

But more than likely I'm 50% wrong
 
I’m going to lean slightly faster since the chronograph has been faster than the speed that is posted in the manual. Shooting today with Banish 30 I would say my .308 was about as load as .22LR, previously it was a whisper. Going to try a slightly less load and see what happens but i agree a longer barrel and more friction and such
 
The reason I'm thinking similar speeds or maybe even slightly faster is that low amount of powder charge is going to burn out quickly.

And if it burns out at the 16-20 inch mark, the remaining 4-8" of barrel are just going to increase friction/drag on the bullet and cause it to slow down.

But more than likely I'm 50% wrong
Depends on the remaining pressure in the barrel. My SWAG is if the powder does burn to the 16" mark, the remaining pressure will continue to accelerate the bullet.
 
It depends on a lot of things, basically you won’t know until you shoot, two bullets may have different results in the same barrel. Or the same load in two different barrels do the same. It boils down to friction. Somewhere around 22-26”, you often see the bullet slowing down. So it’s quite possible that you’ll have a higher velocity with a shorter barrel than the load was developed in.

A good rule of thumb is the barrel length where supers start to lose acceleration, a sub load will actually lose velocity.

This is one place that is challenging with Quickload, plug in a 480” barrel and it will still show it gaining speed.
 
The reason I'm thinking similar speeds or maybe even slightly faster is that low amount of powder charge is going to burn out quickly.

And if it burns out at the 16-20 inch mark, the remaining 4-8" of barrel are just going to increase friction/drag on the bullet and cause it to slow down.

But more than likely I'm 50% wrong
The powder doesn't all instantly burn in the case. As it burns and expands it's pushing unburnt powder down the bore, burning as it goes. That's due to the powder having a certain burn rate. If the burn rate is too slow for the length of the barrel, unburnt powder will be expelled without having been burned. When you shorten the barrel for a powder that's basically designed for a longer barrel, there's going to be powder that hasn't been burned even though you're talking about a much smaller amount of powder charge. In a short barrel, there's still going to be powder moving down the bore that hasn't been ignited by the time it reaches the end of a short barrel. Therefore, I'd guess you're likely to see less velocity than stated for a 24" barrel (though other variances can be a work, like the burn rate of the particular lot of powder you're using).
 
A good rule of thumb with most center-fire rifle cartridges is to account for 25-35 feet-per-second of velocity lost per inch of barrel length lost. This isn’t a hard and fast rule, but it is both a reasonable expectation.
That estimate is for full pressure loads. It won't apply to in the case of a lower pressure reduced load. It is possible that velocity may not drop although it's only a guess. There may not be enough gas to continuously accelerate the bullet down the 24" barrel. If true the 16" barrel might actually be faster.
 
I loaded it up in GRT just cause I was curious

Could not get to 13gn (pressures too low for GRT prediction model). 185gn bullet chosen.
24in bbl, 20gn H4895, 1560fps, 11350psi
16in bbl, 20gn H4895, 1356fps, 11350psi

FWIW, a bullet is accelerating at the muzzle. The pressure is not reduced to 'zero' force on the bullet unless you are using a very long barrel. Yes, people have tried that in order to get a no noise load without a suppressor.

I've shot a LOT of cast bullets from a .308. The mouse fart loads that work well are typically pistol powders. My favorite was 8gn of Blue Dot with 165gn bullets. I used this site to choose loads (their accuracy data was pretty consistent with my results as well):
The .30-30 data was pretty close to what I got in my .308.

Another consideration is that rifle powders are position sensitive at low load densities, ie, if you tip the barrel up before shooting the primer ignites the load in a more consistent manner. If tipped down there is a lot of free space that 'uses up' the primer energy and the powder may not ignite causing a squib load (yes, it has happened to me, more than once :) ). This is the reason most mouse fart loads are pistol powder. They ignite quickly and all at once no matter what you do with it.
 
Some folks operate on intuition or instinct. Not always bad, but sometimes it leads one astray. As long as there is enough pressure in the bore the bullet is accelerating. By "enough" I mean an adequate pressure exerting a force on the bullet base that's greater than the opposing force from bullet inertia and friction in the bore.

Basic physics; if there's a net positive force on the bullet it will accelerate. Force = mass * acceleration.

Quickload gives insight to the amount of powder burned in a bore. It can be surprising. Many rifle loads in typical barrel lengths burn 100% of the powder charge, yet the bullet has a net positive force on its base as it exits the muzzle. So despite burning all of its powder, the bullet velocity increases with barrel length increase. Slow powders in short barrels don't burn all their charge.

A small charge of fast powder in a very long barrel >may< result in slower velocities with exceedingly long barrels. I surely don't know this, but there are accounts from years past of somebody taking a long 22 LR barrel and cutting it bit by bit. The results indicated anything longer than 16" or so yielded slower velocities.

This is my 20 m$ based on a lifetime of university studies and an engineering career. Feel free to argue with me. When I'm wrong, I want to learn from my errors.
 
Just to be clear, just because the pressure behind the bullet is above atmospheric muzzle pressure does not mean that the bullet will accelerate the entire length of a barrel. The force (pressure x bore area) behind the bullet will accelerate the bullet until that force is exceed by the friction force of the bullet in the barrel. This actually occurs in some of the older longer 22LR barrels.

EDIT: Sorry @Krogen, I started this and didn't see you posted your reply.
 
Some folks operate on intuition or instinct. Not always bad, but sometimes it leads one astray. As long as there is enough pressure in the bore the bullet is accelerating. By "enough" I mean an adequate pressure exerting a force on the bullet base that's greater than the opposing force from bullet inertia and friction in the bore.

Basic physics; if there's a net positive force on the bullet it will accelerate. Force = mass * acceleration.

Quickload gives insight to the amount of powder burned in a bore. It can be surprising. Many rifle loads in typical barrel lengths burn 100% of the powder charge, yet the bullet has a net positive force on its base as it exits the muzzle. So despite burning all of its powder, the bullet velocity increases with barrel length increase. Slow powders in short barrels don't burn all their charge.

A small charge of fast powder in a very long barrel >may< result in slower velocities with exceedingly long barrels. I surely don't know this, but there are accounts from years past of somebody taking a long 22 LR barrel and cutting it bit by bit. The results indicated anything longer than 16" or so yielded slower velocities.

This is my 20 m$ based on a lifetime of university studies and an engineering career. Feel free to argue with me. When I'm wrong, I want to learn from my errors.
Not wrong, not completely right. And then there are low velocity loads.

Using a 30” barrel and a 3000 fps muzzle velocity for example. Simple math says the bullet is accelerating at 100 fps each inch the length of the barrel. We know that’s not true. It’s at acclerated 2500 fps at 15” then rule of thumb accelerates 30 fps per inch for next 15”. Also not exactly true, but makes the explanation much easier.

There is a point for every cartridge like the example of 22LR. It’s just a different length barrel. When the powder burns out, gasses are still expanding, increasing velocity. The problem is the point where that acceleration is minimal. When you need 10” of barrel to gain 100 FPS, it’s not worth it. This is what I meant in my earlier post “acceleration stops” it is so little it’s meaningless. The bullet hasn’t stopped, only stops accelerating. Almost every cartridge out there has a point where people know, more barrel isn’t the answer.

Super sonic rounds plot on a graf as a steep rise to peak pressure to an ever decreasing upward slope angle. No on shoots a barrel long enough to see the fall off and eventual stop. I’m not aware of anyone plotting squib loads.

Subsonic is a different issue. What you see is the same load in an 8” barrel is 950 fps, 1150 in a 16” and 1000 fps in a 24”. Some of this can be attributed to different barrels, but when it happens enough, you have to acknowledge the pattern.

The hard variables to calculate are bearing surface of the bullet, true diameters of the lands/grooves and condition of the bore. Never mind the changing of the burn rate of the powder in a less than optimal density. Subs are no more than a controlled squib and why it’s really suggested that you work loads down in velocity, not up. Way too many bullets lodged in barrels by too many people over the years to not take the possibility seriously.

Bottom line, there really will be no hard and fast answer to the original question. Change the powder or bullet weight and the answer will change.

Subs require a little bit of a thinking adjustment. Or engineers need to step outside the classroom once in a while. You’ll get new problems to solve.
 
Been playing in the subsonic world for some time with different cartridges and rifles. The bullet to barrel interaction ( think drag) can be an important variable from barrel to barrel. 22lr and the lead bullets likely addresses the drag issue. Prolly makes sense to try lead in the subsonic world. I just haven't gotten there yet.
 

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