Well, Yes, the 222remmag is faster, but not by enough to consider it superior in velocity. I just meant that in real life both cartridges are in the same velocity league.
Velocity difference between .222 Rem. Mag and .223 Rem?
- Thread starter Dan Rossiter
- Start date
Well, Yes, the 222remmag is faster, but not by enough to consider it superior in velocity. I just meant that in real life both cartridges are in the same velocity league.
Daddy has a 40X 27.5 inch 14 twist factory rifle,,it shoots the 52 Berger with H335 at 3530 FPS ,,I shot my best 5 shot 100 yard group ever with that rifle/load,,
he ordered the Rifle from Gun City as a 222 Rem and when it arrived it was a 222 RM,,,he didnt notice until he was loading ammo for it a month or so later and called Gun City about the screw up and they offered him 500$ profit to bring the rifle back but he declined and kept it,,
he ordered the Rifle from Gun City as a 222 Rem and when it arrived it was a 222 RM,,,he didnt notice until he was loading ammo for it a month or so later and called Gun City about the screw up and they offered him 500$ profit to bring the rifle back but he declined and kept it,,
KMart
Gold $$ Contributor
Sometimes the Sierra manual gets things a little out of whack. When reading their 5th edition manual on the 30BR Remington (yes they have data), the last paragraph said this.
"The 30 BR is a good example of a cartridge in search of a niche. There are virtually no tasks it can perform better than a number of existing factory cartridges. Consequently, the costs and tribulations associated with building a wildcat should be weighed carefully before committing to such a cartridge."
Maybe there was no score shooting when that was written or they just got something wrong. Looks like the 30BR has found its niche.
I read somewhere that they had to print downloaded data for the 257 Roberts 40* AI as the real data was faster than a 25-06 and they didnt think anybody would believe that ,,
Nonsense - the 25-06 holds ~ 10% more powder and consequently, delivers more velocity and energy.
KMart
Gold $$ Contributor
Could be. More efficient case and better use of the powder charge. More powder doesn't always equal more speed.
Don't think I have seen this in the thread so far, but the real reason the PRINTED results are as they are, is that they have to stay within SAAMI specs, not real world handloader results. SAAMI specs are determined by the lowest common denominator firearms produced for any particular cartridge. So if some manufacturer decides to produce a firearm in 222 Mag that is a POS, then SAAMI has to reduce the spec on the ammo so it will be safe in the POS production firearm. Conversely, as was alluded to earlier in the thread, 5.56 NATO rounds have benefited by the governments desire to increase the performance of that round. Now go compare the 5.56 to printed data on the 223 Rem & you will get a feel for what I'm saying here. Same cartridge, but each spec'd for a different group of firearms.
This is not true - SAAMI does NOT lower pressure standards for a P.O.S. and the SAAMI standards have nothing to do with handloading manuals.
SAAMI is a "Voluntary Compliance Organization", meaning that they establish standards, with the equal help and input from the industry... and member companies can except them or not, as they choose.
Ammunition companies can (and WILL) release loads that exceed SAAMI standards, ie Hornady's "Light Magnum" line of cartridges - ~10k over SAAMI !
In handloading manuals, many older cartridges that are not popular, had their loads tested 30-50 years ago, and the manual writers never went back to retest them with new powders (it is expensive).
So, if you look at loading data for the 22-250 over the years, it changes (goes up) and new powders are added to the list - but cartridges like the 257 Roberts and 250-3000 Savage are the same as they were 50 years ago.
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John, I'm not going to disagree with what you say here, but don't you think that ammunition makers & manual printers follow the SAAMI guidelines for the most part in today's legal environment? It would seem pretty foolish to do otherwise. There are exceptions as you pointed out, like the Hornady "light Magnum" loads, but aren't there warnings on the box that these loads are higher pressure, thus an exception?
You might notice that many handloading manuals do not use any pressure measurements at all - they find max pressures the old fashioned way - the same way we do... primers, head markings, and extraction. And others that are using pressure equipment, are doing it the same ol' fashioned way, and then writing down the pressures in the manuals... and they are running in the mid 60Kpsia pressures these days.
SAAMI is not the limit for safety, they make standards for uniformity and interchangeability - SAAMI pressures for the 0.380" case head family are 48,000 to 53,000 PSI, but hand loading manuals are running mid 60Kpsia, and the cases can take it.
Amen...27.3 , 335 . 52 SMK . , < .100 c-c
John can you give credible references for your information?
Speer manuals list the SAAMI standard pressure and say that their loads are within that standard.
Most of the loads in the Sierra manual fall within the accepted SAAMI pressures with notable exception being the 357 Magnum loads. The loads in the Sierra manual use the original higher SAAMI pressures of 43000 psi instead of the twice reduced pressures of 35000and 33000 psi. That is why the Sierra maximum load for a 140 jhp in 357 is 19.6 grains of H110 and in the speer manual it is 18.0 grains of H110.
SAAMI is a voluntary standard but in most cases it is accepted and followed. Is it possible to find exceptions? Yes on both sides of the scale. I have found in most of the manuals that I have the 257 Roberts loads are all the lower pathetic old SAAMI pressures and rarely do you find the Higher SAAMI +P load data in the manuals. Even though this particular cartridge has been loaded closer to (and sometimes over) modern rifle pressure limits the books still list the old lower standards.
It is my understanding that all commercial reloading data is worked up with pressure measuring devices. Either the old copper crusher method or the newer piezoelectric pressure sensors. The piezoelectric method is the preferred method because it shows the entire pressure/time curve and spots double peaks in load data as well as delayed firing that occurs in microseconds. The reason some loads were reduced was the new method of measuring pressures showed peak pressures that exceeded 70000 in many older loads that used the copper crusher method. A few loads were increased but not many.
Speer manuals list the SAAMI standard pressure and say that their loads are within that standard.
Most of the loads in the Sierra manual fall within the accepted SAAMI pressures with notable exception being the 357 Magnum loads. The loads in the Sierra manual use the original higher SAAMI pressures of 43000 psi instead of the twice reduced pressures of 35000and 33000 psi. That is why the Sierra maximum load for a 140 jhp in 357 is 19.6 grains of H110 and in the speer manual it is 18.0 grains of H110.
SAAMI is a voluntary standard but in most cases it is accepted and followed. Is it possible to find exceptions? Yes on both sides of the scale. I have found in most of the manuals that I have the 257 Roberts loads are all the lower pathetic old SAAMI pressures and rarely do you find the Higher SAAMI +P load data in the manuals. Even though this particular cartridge has been loaded closer to (and sometimes over) modern rifle pressure limits the books still list the old lower standards.
It is my understanding that all commercial reloading data is worked up with pressure measuring devices. Either the old copper crusher method or the newer piezoelectric pressure sensors. The piezoelectric method is the preferred method because it shows the entire pressure/time curve and spots double peaks in load data as well as delayed firing that occurs in microseconds. The reason some loads were reduced was the new method of measuring pressures showed peak pressures that exceeded 70000 in many older loads that used the copper crusher method. A few loads were increased but not many.
FWIW The parent case of the 223 is not really the duce mag only in a real sense it a derivative of the 222 2/2 or the second generation of it
I think where the mag will do it's best is in the long range event,s with th e heavy bullets like the sierra 69 gr.
It should gain a few feet in velocity when loaded . I remember when Wally Hart won the nationals with it a long time ago.
But that was quite a while back. It does need another look at with the heavy bullets for long range. I think it will do just as well as the 223 and maybe better at 500 yds.
I think where the mag will do it's best is in the long range event,s with th e heavy bullets like the sierra 69 gr.
It should gain a few feet in velocity when loaded . I remember when Wally Hart won the nationals with it a long time ago.
But that was quite a while back. It does need another look at with the heavy bullets for long range. I think it will do just as well as the 223 and maybe better at 500 yds.
Infrequent Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Old thread but, why are 223 and 222 Rem Mag loads/powders quite a bit different? I have looked at load data and they almost never use same accuacy powder. Do not understand this. The velocity is almost the same. Looking at Nosler manual.
Infrequent Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
assuming high quality brass, NOS Norma or other.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
I dont figure much 222mag testing is going on these days. Not much advancement there
The 223 and 222 mag have slightly different case capacities the 222 mag 33.3 ave 223 31.9 ave with the same max pressure, they would have similar velocities but the 222 Mag should be slightly higher depending on barrel and chamber dimensional differences will have influences that could reverse their velocity numbers. NOW introduce the 5.56 it's different than both with higher max chamber pressures of 62,366 military test barrel oddly measured and a longer throat for long military bullets, and a capacity of 31.0 Ave military.
If you have a 222 Magnum no reason to get a 223.
If you truly think a 223 or 5.56 NATO is not suitable for killing men then I have some beach front swamp land for you.
Infrequent Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Dusty, your post was very polite. I am adopting the cartridge as a near favorite. I have a few rifles and have been buying high quality vintage brass. I have a factory sako and a re-chambered 722. I like to work extra hard on things that most people have moved on from. Other favorite is 6mm rem. My beard is gray and my hair is 90% gone. PS, your posts are a PHD in shooting and reloading.
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