Varmint for score bullets? 6br

[Dusty Stevens]

I belive the score records fell often for a bit. Funny you should bring that up. I looked yesterday at all the IBS records and very few have been set in recent history. A lot go back into the early 2000's. I went to an IBS 100 yard MATCH years ago and shot 22xs. That was my top score at that point. I was 4th or 5rh. I went looking for a 30 barrel the next day. I can be stubborn but I knew then the 6mm at short range score was a dead horse. The 30 br is a fun cartridge, accurate, easy to tune but it helped push me away from the IBS. I have a 30 barrel on one gun right now for the upcoming 200 yd winter matches. So we have better optics and tuners but a lot of records not falling. Why?

Maybe because the 6mm has fallen out of favor and people just keep plowing forward with the 30 not realizing even with all those advancements of the past 20yrs they still cant outshoot the old school ppc even without those advancements. Those records were set back when a .250agg kept you up top- now it wont get you in the top 20 if good shooters show up. Im not against the 30- i just built a new one last year for score- but ill say it like i say every other rhetorical question… if the 30 is working, why isnt the 30 working? Like the vaccines right? Please dont take these posts as bashing like i said i just built a brand new one so im not against em im just wanting folks to think. They also wear you out fighting them for a whole weekend even in a 13.5hv as opposed to a LV ppc

 

[JEFFPPC]

I realize your not bashing and I agree with you 98% of the time. Two points. First I was not relating the records drought to the 30 soar 2 different conversations. Second, If I could only have been 1 rifle to do what I do most which is shooting from 100 to 500 yards various matches, it would be a PPC. But,I have more than one tool in my bag and for 100 and 200 yard score....It's the 30 br. My whole point was if the OP wants to get set up for 100-200 score matches and be competitive.....he should be looking at a 30.

 

[AlNyhus]

There's a few things to keep in mind when comparing the 30's to the 6's in Score shooting.

1. To take advantage of the the .30's bullet diameter versus the 6's, you need to execute the shot with a .30 exactly as you would have with the 6. Only then can you capitalize on the increased bullet diameter...which is a bit incorrect because it's actually the radius of the bullet that may be the advantage. Bench technique (table manners), gun handling and recoil management are a lot different with the 30's....they are less forgiving of improper follow through, etc.

2. The biggest advantage of the 30's. is their ability to stay in tune across an entire days shooting. If you follow the road map for tuning these .30's, that's what puts the pancakes on the table. No more getting lost with the tune up, no more ratcheting the powder measure up or down...you keep your head in the conditions and let the gun do the work.

Bullet diameter won't save you if you press the trigger at the wrong time!

Good shootin' -Al

 

[AndyTaber]

There's a few things to keep in mind when comparing the 30's to the 6's in Score shooting.

1. To take advantage of the the .30's bullet diameter versus the 6's, you need to execute the shot with a .30 exactly as you would have with the 6. Only then can you capitalize on the increased bullet diameter...which is a bit incorrect because it's actually the radius of the bullet that may be the advantage. Bench technique (table manners), gun handling and recoil management are a lot different with the 30's....they are less forgiving of improper follow through, etc.

2. The biggest advantage of the 30's. is their ability to stay in tune across an entire days shooting. If you follow the road map for tuning these .30's, that's what puts the pancakes on the table. No more getting lost with the tune up, no more ratcheting the powder measure up or down...you keep your head in the conditions and let the gun do the work.

Bullet diameter won't save you if you press the trigger at the wrong time!

Good shootin' -Al

I have always maintained the biggest advantage of the 30 is because you are shooting a 115 gr bullet vs the 65-68 gr. Less affected by wind.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I have always maintained the biggest advantage of the 30 is because you are shooting a 115 gr bullet vs the 65-68 gr. Less affected by wind.

Wrong

 

[JEFFPPC]

I have always maintained the biggest advantage of the 30 is because you are shooting a 115 gr bullet vs the 65-68 gr. Less affected by wind.

Here are some facts to help you Andy. I was at first just going to say I have used both in matches to 500 yds and the wind calls in my mind have always been very similar. But, I want to be sure to give you FACTS so here they are from Berger Bullets Calculator. A 30br at 3000 fps , 115 gr bullet and 10 mph breeze perpendicular to the line of fire. 100 yard drift 1.17 in. At 200 yd 4.71. Now a PPC with a a 68 gr bullet at 3350. 100 yds has 1.17 drift. 200 yd drift of 4.70. Any questions?

 

[JimPag]

Bottom Line. If your going score shooting at 1-300 yards and meters a 30 is the way to go ESPECIALLY at 100 yards. A 6 whatever will be more competitive at 2 and 300 way more than at 100. This is my 10th year shooting score and I've seen less than a handful of 6's win a 100 yard agg. At 2 and 300 I've seen a few more matches won with a 6. Also IMO a person who is a gifted shooter can win at 2&300 with a 6 than a half ass shooter with a 30. Once again it all boils down to how good a shooter is who can read the flags and pull the trigger at the right time with a well tuned rifle. Perfect example. Roy Hunter won the Bud Pryor in Thurmont Maryland in 2013 with a 6 PPC. Now we all know that Roy can shoot. He didn't finish all that high at 100 yards but he stayed clean, at 200 he finished 6th and at 300 he finished 4th and he was the only one who stayed clean and shot a 750 and he won the Grand Agg. Hal Drake who is an excellent shooter with a 6PPC finished 3rd. Most of us realize that the 30BR is not as inherently accurate as a 6PPC. If someone thinks different their a fool. Most of us know the 6PPC will always dominate SR group while the 30BR will always dominate SR score. 2 different tools for 2 different jobs. The original question was for a 6BR in SR score. Some of us again got away from the original question. The answer guy to your question, if your going to shoot SR score stick with a 30.

 

[searcher]

So we have better optics and tuners but a lot of records not falling. Why?

Seems a lot of records tend to fall when most of the shooters are using the best caliber and bullets for the job. The successful switch to .30 assumes the caliber is just as inherently accurate, the bullets just as good - and the shooter just as comfortable with it as the rig used prior to the switch. In the early days several years back, there were a few guys who really talked the .30 up as a winning rig for them, like Randy Robinette. He and a few others made their own bullets that worked in their rigs, they were excellent shots and obviously had guns up to the task -a perfect combo. The reality is there is still a rather slim selection of really good bullets readily available- and if your gun doesn't like the limited selection - you are out of luck - or you buy another barrel. For the guys used to shooting 6PPC, it takes a bit of getting used to the scope tapping one's glasses (free recoil) and the additional muzzle blast. Not big deals - but everything does matter - and the most minute things can affect how a guy shoots - even a good shooter. I don't know that it can be proven the average .30 is more accurate - but assuming it is just as good in that department - it then comes down to the bullets that are available, and the additional recoil factor being offset by bullet diameter advantage, all else being the same. Because there are so many truly great shooters shooting the .30's, I personally think many of them have gotten past the change or modified their use of free recoil method and have good bullets on hand. Maybe a strong case for the 6mm? Maybe more records would have been broken had the 30 not been invented and the best shooters were all still using a 6PPC rather than leaning towards the instant "advantage" of the bullet footprint? If the .30 was as accurate and "mannered" as the 6PPC - why is it not used by everyone in the top group matches? In the end - there are definite attributes to the .30 - but if I were using mine and I had a great shot next to me using a 6mm, I'd not assume any outcome.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Seems a lot of records tend to fall when most of the shooters are using the best caliber and bullets for the job. The successful switch to .30 assumes the caliber is just as inherently accurate, the bullets just as good - and the shooter just as comfortable with it as the rig used prior to the switch. In the early days several years back, there were a few guys who really talked the .30 up as a winning rig for them, like Randy Robinette. He and a few others made their own bullets that worked in their rigs, they were excellent shots and obviously had guns up to the task -a perfect combo. The reality is there is still a rather slim selection of really good bullets readily available- and if your gun doesn't like the limited selection - you are out of luck - or you buy another barrel. For the guys used to shooting 6PPC, it takes a bit of getting used to the scope tapping one's glasses (free recoil) and the additional muzzle blast. Not big deals - but everything does matter - and the most minute things can affect how a guy shoots - even a good shooter. I don't know that it can be proven the average .30 is more accurate - but assuming it is just as good in that department - it then comes down to the bullets that are available, and the additional recoil factor being offset by bullet diameter advantage, all else being the same. Because there are so many truly great shooters shooting the .30's, I personally think many of them have gotten past the change or modified their use of free recoil method and have good bullets on hand. Maybe a strong case for the 6mm? Maybe more records would have been broken had the 30 not been invented and the best shooters were all still using a 6PPC rather than leaning towards the instant "advantage" of the bullet footprint? If the .30 was as accurate and "mannered" as the 6PPC - why is it not used by everyone in the top group matches? In the end - there are definite attributes to the .30 - but if I were using mine and I had a great shot next to me using a 6mm, I'd not assume any outcome.

Good post. My comment of records was about the entirety of short range records not just the score records. I don't think many shooters feel the 30 is more accurate but they realize the advantage at 100 and 200 of the larger diameter bullet gives in a cartridge with very similar accuracy. I had this discussion with a current and a past record holder. He thinks it is less really good bullets out there. Another thing could be the Benchrest community gets older and older, eyesight diminishes, reflexes slow down and the big one....our old brains that forgot to tighten the rest. Now, if some one could develope a 30 case that delivered a 115 at 3000 fps with the recoil of a .222.....Now watch the game change again. Oh, and a super boat tail that gave the 30 115 bullet a bc of 501.

 

[AndyTaber]

Here are some facts to help you Andy. I was at first just going to say I have used both in matches to 500 yds and the wind calls in my mind have always been very similar. But, I want to be sure to give you FACTS so here they are from Berger Bullets Calculator. A 30br at 3000 fps , 115 gr bullet and 10 mph breeze perpendicular to the line of fire. 100 yard drift 1.17 in. At 200 yd 4.71. Now a PPC with a a 68 gr bullet at 3350. 100 yds has 1.17 drift. 200 yd drift of 4.70. Any questions?

good data. I did plug the information into three other ballistics calculators. Vortex optical, Federal ammunition and Hornady. The Vortex and Hornady give a slight edge to the 30, while the Federal was a draw, same as the Berger. Results: inconclusive.

 

[JEFFPPC]

good data. I did plug the information into three other ballistics calculators. Vortex optical, Federal ammunition and Hornady. The Vortex and Hornady give a slight edge to the 30, while the Federal was a draw, same as the Berger. Results: inconclusive.

Andy, my wife says I am stubborn. You are some where light years beyond. But you are giving me a good chuckle. Inconclusive, lmao.

 

[jcline]

I think people are comparing apples to oranges. A 30br WILL shoot at 3150 fps+ and the many different varients of the 30 improved will shoot in the 3300 fps range with no problem. If you look closely at the score records over the last 6-7 years MANY have fallen or changed ownership. There are some great shooters out there that can beat you with the 6 almost anytime they want to, but there are some that need the extra bullet diameter. ( i happen to be one of them) I am playing with a PPC and will try to figure that beast out at some point and try to shoot some score with it. I am thankfull that some GREAT PPC shooters have offered to help me in trying to learn this cartridge. I bought a set of 6mm dies just to play with and try to build a competetive 6mm bullet as I have with the 30's.

 

[RGRobinett]

"Winners win and losers whine" . . . per the exterior ballistics comparison (post #26, above: "10 mph breeze perpendicular to the line of fire. 100 yard drift 1.17 in. At 200 yd 4.71. Now a PPC with a a 68 gr bullet at 3350. 100 yards has 1.17 drift. 200 yd drift of 4.70. Any questions?") . . . beyond 100 yards, there is NO [useful] scoring advantage: at 200 Yd., for 6mm and thirty Cal. bullets, the penalty for a (mythical) constant vector, 1 MPH misread is 14 times the radial difference . . . when someone can dope 1/14th MPH, I'd like some free lessons . . . perhaps, in gratitude for the kindness, I'd part with some "BLACK-JUICE". RG

 

[JEFFPPC]

I think people are comparing apples to oranges. A 30br WILL shoot at 3150 fps+ and the many different varients of the 30 improved will shoot in the 3300 fps range with no problem. If you look closely at the score records over the last 6-7 years MANY have fallen or changed ownership. There are some great shooters out there that can beat you with the 6 almost anytime they want to, but there are some that need the extra bullet diameter. ( i happen to be one of them) I am playing with a PPC and will try to figure that beast out at some point and try to shoot some score with it. I am thankfull that some GREAT PPC shooters have offered to help me in trying to learn this cartridge. I bought a set of 6mm dies just to play with and try to build a competetive 6mm bullet as I have with the 30's.

Yes, you can juggle ballistics to try and make a point which is why I used the velocity figures I did. They are what I hear and read close to what most are shooting. Any 30 BR Improved was never in the conversation. I am not sure what point your trying to make. Do you think a 30 does not have an advantage over a 6 at 100 and 200 ?