Varget, 223 Rem & Hard Carbon - The Test

[qldreloader]

Gday everyone,

I shoot a lot of .223 Rem 80gr loads with ADI AR2208 (Varget) and it seems to be a combination that builds up hard carbon in the bore quickly. I reckon I've tried just about every carbon cleaning product available here in Australia and come to the conclusion that most of them don't actually remove any carbon. I decided to do a definitive test.

I fired 46 rounds last night (Varget and 80gr Noslers) in a Tikka T3 Supervarmint Stainless with 1:8 twist. The rifle previously had 42 rounds of the same ammo fired in it the week before and was put away with a quick patch out with Ballistol. So a total of 88 rounds without a good clean. I got home very late so it was again only patched out with Ballistol and put away until this morning when the test began. Results were verified with a borescope.

To start the bore was heavily carbon fouled for it's full length, I find this is typical of Varget loads in .223. There was a visible carbon ring.

Process/Results

• Cleaned with Boretech C4 as per instructions - very little result.
• Cleaned with Chameleon Gel - very little result at throat although cleaned effectively about 8" and further down bore.
• Cleaned with Hoppes#9 and bronze bore brush (12 passes each removed at muzzle) - no difference from step above.
• Cleaned with Iosso Pate using patches only (3 patches worked back and forth through the bore) - carbon significantly reduced and carbon ring diminished although hard carbon still present in first few inches of the bore.
• Cleaned with Iosso Paste and nylon brush (15 pases both ways) followed by patching 3 times with Ballistol (short stroking throughout the bore) - 95% of cardbon removed.

So I am now convinced that I need to use Iosso regularly to keep the bore clean of hard carbon. Everything else seems to be only removing the loose carbon fouling and not achieving much.

I will repeat the experiment on another Tikka 223 with a chromemoly barrel in the next week of so and see if I get the same result.

 

[Raydee]

Does Losso have abrasive in it? Varget causes some pretty stubborn carbon in my barrels as well.

 

[Sandstorm]

You need an abrasive to cut through the hard carbon, Nothing else will do it from my findings as well.
Iosso works well and has not hurt performance or barrel life for me. Your MMV and just my 2c

 

[Bemoni]

I had some reasonable good results with M-Pro7 carbon remover in my 6,5-284 ( it need a good thorough cleaning every 200 rounds ).
I usually give it 3 or 4 full treatments as per instructions and it have worked just fine, the ES's are dropping and accuracy are restored just fine after each treatment and it even removes the carbon left on the crown.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I don't run Varget in my 223's, do use it in my 22-250's(so much higher velocity). I have found Sharps Shooter(wipe out) products work very well cleaning up Varget fouling, bullet brand hasn't made any difference.

 

[Sandstorm]

Varget is one i love to hate. Its just plain nasty,
but shoots so good in my 6.5x47 that im sticking with it...nasty and all the bug holes.

 

[jelenko]

Gday everyone,

I shoot a lot of .223 Rem 80gr loads with ADI AR2208 (Varget) and it seems to be a combination that builds up hard carbon in the bore quickly. I reckon I've tried just about every carbon cleaning product available here in Australia and come to the conclusion that most of them don't actually remove any carbon. I decided to do a definitive test.

I fired 46 rounds last night (Varget and 80gr Noslers) in a Tikka T3 Supervarmint Stainless with 1:8 twist. The rifle previously had 42 rounds of the same ammo fired in it the week before and was put away with a quick patch out with Ballistol. So a total of 88 rounds without a good clean. I got home very late so it was again only patched out with Ballistol and put away until this morning when the test began. Results were verified with a borescope.

To start the bore was heavily carbon fouled for it's full length, I find this is typical of Varget loads in .223. There was a visible carbon ring.

Process/Results

• Cleaned with Boretech C4 as per instructions - very little result.
• Cleaned with Chameleon Gel - very little result at throat although cleaned effectively about 8" and further down bore.
• Cleaned with Hoppes#9 and bronze bore brush (12 passes each removed at muzzle) - no difference from step above.
• Cleaned with Iosso Pate using patches only (3 patches worked back and forth through the bore) - carbon significantly reduced and carbon ring diminished although hard carbon still present in first few inches of the bore.
• Cleaned with Iosso Paste and nylon brush (15 pases both ways) followed by patching 3 times with Ballistol (short stroking throughout the bore) - 95% of cardbon removed.

So I am now convinced that I need to use Iosso regularly to keep the bore clean of hard carbon. Everything else seems to be only removing the loose carbon fouling and not achieving much.

I will repeat the experiment on another Tikka 223 with a chromemoly barrel in the next week of so and see if I get the same result.

Very cool!
FWIW. This is exactly the same results I got when I did the same tests [but the powder was 8208, not varget]
I will add that using Iosso on doubled over patch on a parker hale jag worked as well for me as what you found with the nylon brush.

 

[qldreloader]

Does Losso have abrasive in it? Varget causes some pretty stubborn carbon in my barrels as well.

It definitely has an abrasive in it. I think you need an abrasive to remove hard carbon.

 

[qldreloader]

I had some reasonable good results with M-Pro7 carbon remover in my 6,5-284 ( it need a good thorough cleaning every 200 rounds ).
I usually give it 3 or 4 full treatments as per instructions and it have worked just fine, the ES's are dropping and accuracy are restored just fine after each treatment and it even removes the carbon left on the crown.

G'day mate. Did you verify with a borescope? Only asking as I thought C4 Carbon Cleaner was doing a good job until I used a borescope. I haven't tried M-Pro 7 but it is available in Australia so I could give it a go.

 

[qldreloader]

Varget is one i love to hate. Its just plain nasty,
but shoots so good in my 6.5x47 that im sticking with it...nasty and all the bug holes.

It not only shoots well in my 223 but is also Aussie made and hence readily available for me. I have to put up with it being dirty as generally there are no other options.

 

[qldreloader]

Very cool!
FWIW. This is exactly the same results I got when I did the same tests [but the powder was 8208, not varget]
I will add that using Iosso on doubled over patch on a parker hale jag worked as well for me as what you found with the nylon brush.

I'll experiment with a PH Jag. Thanks!

 

[jelenko]

I'll experiment with a PH Jag. Thanks!

I should have included that I've found some lubricant is needed to get the doubled over, Iosso covered patch into the bore.
I've been using Freeall - but I'd guess just about any would work.
The patch pretty tight but it cleans right down to the corners between the lands and grooves.

 

[CJ6]

Have you tried using a 20 cal jag?

 

[jelenko]

I haven't. I'm thinking that the really tight fit is needed to force the patch into the 'corners'.

 

[boltfluter]

I should have included that I've found some lubricant is needed to get the doubled over, Iosso covered patch into the bore.
I've been using Freeall - but I'd guess just about any would work.
The patch pretty tight but it cleans right down to the corners between the lands and grooves.

I run 2 patches of Hoppes gun oil down the bore before I use any abrasive cleaner as a general rule, and it works quite well for me.
Paul

 

[Bemoni]

G'day mate. Did you verify with a borescope? Only asking as I thought C4 Carbon Cleaner was doing a good job until I used a borescope. I haven't tried M-Pro 7 but it is available in Australia so I could give it a go.

Haven't got a borescope, unfortunately, so i have to rely on what i see in group development and experience.
This particular barrel is a SS Hardy ( My first from that company ) and it is VERY accurate, but as with all flat-shouldered cartridges there WILL be a problem with carbon deposits and this one was no exception.
I'm using Reload Swiss RS70 as propellant and it's working very well, carbon is building up to a degree where it's problematic around 240 rounds, counting from a clean barrel.

There is no carbon ring as such, but a relative even layer in the first 3 or 4 inches from the throat and i found that, the ES was going from 3 m/s to 14 m/s when i passed the 240 round mark, so i decided to make a good and thorough cleaning every 200 rounds and it has worked out just fine, until now.

Furthermore, EVYRYTIME i'm leaving the firingline and heading home, the barrel are getting a good dose of Break-Free, when it's still hot from the last firing and i believe this keeps the build-up in a tolerable level.

 

[qldreloader]

Just tested the Tikka with the CM barrel. It has 2000 rounds on it and is not looking great. It has always been cleaned after use with BT C4 remover as per instructions and then hoppes and a bronze brush. If it shows any copper it gets some Pro Shot Copper Solvent or Sweets.

I fired 46 rounds yesterday and when I got home I ran a patch with Ballistol through the bore and let it sit while I had dinner. I then patched out and borescope. The bore was ugly, pretty heavy carbon fouling in the throat and yet again a carbon ring forming. There is a bit of fire cracking in this barrel and that seemed to be absolutely caked in hard carbon.

Did my normal routine and borescope and the barrel was not looking a lot different in the first 8" or so. After that there was still carbon in the grooves but it was streaky and light.

Put some patches through with Iosso and Ballistol - one one pass each time and discard at muzzle and then short stroked with the same mixture in the first 12" or thereabouts of the barrel for a while before pushing patch through and out the muzzle. Did that 3 times and then patched out with isopropyl alcohol and borescope. Result was 95% of carbon gone and a clean throat and bore.

Next test is to see how many rounds I can fire before the hard carbon builds up to a point of concern. Then I'll use the Iosso again. In between I'll just patch out with Ballistol and leave it at that.

If the Iosso ruins my barrel I'll let you know.

 

[Sandstorm]

If the Iosso ruins my barrel I'll let you know.

Its not gonna hurt anything Sir.

 

[Raydee]

I just got in some Thorroclean and some iosso brushes and was really happy with how well my barrels came out. Def cuts my cleaning time down.

 

[qldreloader]

I just got in some Thorroclean and some iosso brushes and was really happy with how well my barrels came out. Def cuts my cleaning time down.

Haven't seen it available in Australia and I suspect if it does turn up it will be very expensive. I would like to give it a try though as the Iosso is a bit messy.