Universal Bench Varmint Target Rifle--An Idea.

[Aussie_bob]

I think if you narrowed it down to a few actions that you were considering and went to each and asked what price if they were selected for the action supplier virtually guaranteeing them sales of possible 500 actions as fast as they could make them.
As to barrel does it matter who makes it long as it is done to specific twist and contour & chamber, universal ).Even the stocks could be made by different suppliers made to the pattern finally decided on.
What you are doing is saying OK we will all shoot EG: Sako VLS chambered in 6BR.If you specify one barrel maker one action maker & one stock maker, You are creating a brand of rifle along with the competition. If you want to shoot this comp you must buy this rifle, guaranteeing sales. The Universal VLS 6mmBR.
Just my Ramblings

 

[rhino]

Well my thing is keeping costs down and having a viable competition rig. If we could gaurantee a smith, perferably a sponsor here 30 rifles or so, we could gaurantee Bruno's lets say 30 stocks, etc etc etc.

I know we can get a discount of 20% on pac-nor barrels if we got over 15 right? They did it over on savage shooters. I believe the v-block would be more but not much to the inletting.

Maybe richard's stocks or another sight sponsor. Have like $200 for every rifle go to the sight?

Work out a logo AS with interlocking 6mmbr that could be branded in cheaply and easily.

I think it would be cool to have our version of the "Hide rifle". Maybe even have a shootoff vs them...I could do it at least

RHINOUT!

 

[BountyHunter]

Bruce Baer,really his wife Gerry Baer) has over 50 pattern stocks in their shop right now to work with. They also can mix and match one front to a different rear, ie the long Edge front and the Tooley rear and all at the same price. He now has that in a Edge/MBR as a stock pattern.

I really like his stocks as they are always straight and options galore without breaking the bank. Delivery time is normally well under 30 days,normally a week or two if the wood is in stock).

He is also making me a M 700 lightweight thumbhole sporter that will be under 2 lbs we think when finished.

Might want to consider Bruce on this deal also.

BH

 

[Forum Boss]

To me the key to the project is finding a good action at a good price. It would be nice if it was compatible with a V-block, but that's not critical is the stocks arrived 100% inletted with pillars in place. And yes, if there was a master stock design, a variety of stock-makers could produce clones. I think you'd need to keep the material constant or you'd have weight variances which kind of blows the concept.

Re barrels, I'd prefer to keep it one barrel-maker, one length, one contour. Yes there will be barrel to barrel variances, but I think the single-maker system affords the best chance of achieving equalized preformance from gun to gun.

Back to optics--I suggested a Leupold 6-20X EFR at close to $500.00 "group price". Are there better choices?

 

[rhino]

I like the Burris Black Diamonds, but tend to be in the minority. the 6-24 from the now sponsor Brunos is just a smidge more and 1/8 clicks which I like.

Glass to me is better in the BD. I tend to be in the minority when it comes to Burris. However given the choose I would choose the BD over the Leupy evertime unless I knew I was getting a skunk Burris.

Nikon Monarch? No experience with the Gold line, but should be within the price range.

I agree stock should be something like a Tooley MBR..which could be had from a sponsor like again Bruno's or Richards version..etc.

I think the group,if these does become a package deal) should make all attempts to deal with sponsors. Part of the $ should go to the website.

Barrels does anyone truely object to a Pac-nor 3 groove 1-8 twist in Heavy Palma contour? Thinking here is I don't want a nose heavy rifle.

Maybe the shoot could be done with factory Lapua ammo and the entry fee cover the ammo? Just throwing that out there to keep things even more even!

Back to stocks many people don't like thumbholes for BR type hunting. Richard's Lowrider stock in laminate be an option with block?

RHINOUT!

 

[rhino]

Do you think we could cut a small break on lets say a Surgeon action?

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/index.htm?id=-1234076074

Of course if we do might as well as go with the Stiller br action.

I think keeping a Remington footprint gives the user more options, but cutting back on a key component like an action could be reciepe for distaster.

Of course the Barnard comes with trigger though.

http://www.mtguns.com/prod01.htm

So how much we saving after throwing in $200 for a Jewell?

BTW this stock from Richard's--sight sponsor is pretty sweet!

http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/model8.htm

What is the concensous for a price ceiling. that would help. We going with Yo's ceiling for this. Competition rig under $2,000 with optics?

RHINOUT!

 

[Forum Boss]

I'd love to see the gun cost $1200 before optics/rings.

Unfortunately a $650-700 action won't make that possible. Figure $250.00 for a barrel,minimum) and $250.00 for stock and you're right at $1200 without a trigger.

Still, let's keep up the suggestions.

I definitely like the idea of spec'ing a gun with world appeal. And yes it would be nice if it could perform well with factory ammo, though I don't think factory fodder should be mandatory.

It would be neat though, to see a "Lapua Cup" where ammo is provided--similar to some Palma matches.

 

[rstreich]

How about stopping short of specifying the optics?

Personally, I can tolerate a lot of stock designs and there are so many well-made actions and barrels that it would strictly be quibbling to disagree with them. But, optics? I've become extreeemely particular about those.

If you feel it's important to specify the optics as well, then the one disagreement I have would be to use a variable power. Given the intended purpose, I would say that you should use a fixed power scope modified so that the reticle can be locked in place.

Yes, any scope brand can go bad, but I've had far too much experience with Leupolds that wouldn't hold point of aim and wouldn't track. It's seriously aggravating to be at the bench trying to find a load for what seems to be a finicky gun only to find out after days of fiddling that your only problem is the scope that you chose to mount on it.

robert

 

[Forum Boss]

Specifying a single brand of scope, one that is readily available worldwide is the simplest way to go. But alternatively, one could specify say 3 or 4 scopes within a give price range. If you do that, you lose the potential advantage of a large buy from a single supplier, and the vendor loses the marketing advantage of being able to say "selected as the sole optics supplier for the Universal bench/varmint rifle etc."

Speaking of which, I think we need a catchy name for this thing. I'm struggling because it would be designed for BR, Varmint, F-class--everything you could shoot with a front rest/rear bag.

 

[rhino]

Only way I could see that happening the $1200.00 limit, is using a Savage action...which i don't think would be embraced!

Humm: Barnard Action $925
Barrel Prefitted $350
Custom Stock $350

Total Cost $1600 or so I believe would be a good base and doable.

Garauntee vendors 30 of each. I think the Barnards are of close enough tolerances for prefits right?

So maybe the action sent to local ffl and then the rest in a group buy????

This of course if the stock had the Vee-block in it.

RHINOUT!

 

[ReedG]

I'm astonished at the prices of custom stocks.

I'm building a custom rifle right now on a Savage action. A basic Rutland laminate stock from some of the advertisers on this forum costs about what my budget is for the whole rifle. Numbers like $325 for basic inlet,discounting the $75 extra for a Savage[?]) plus $160 to $195 for pillar bedding plus $40 for the pillars.

Without doing a lot of the work myself,which I am now resigned to) I cannot get a laminated custom stock for less than $500, inletted/bedded/clearcoated up to $750. All this for a Rutland laminate of the type Boyd's sells for $79.95 ... just not in a style I like.

Why in the world should a Rutland laminate basic stock cost so much?

Also, I'm not aware of any actions out there,without barrel nuts) that a gunsmith can cut and chamber prefit barrels for. Some 'smiths will do it for a Panda that they have already done before, but I haven't heard of any others. So your barrels are going to be $250 to $350 plus $150 or more for threading and chambering.

Next thing you know, this great idea becomes a full-blown custom rifle because what everybody really wants is a full-blown custom rifle.

 

[rhino]

I think the idea here is a low budget custom rifle. I remember the days I thought $807 OTD cost for my Tikka Master Sporter in 6.5x55 was insane. Shoot...drop in the bucket in comparison to what I spend these days.

After bumping around and reading the reports on the Barnard I think this would be an excellent choice. 3 lugs, comes with the trigger, heard nothing bad about them.

Stocks I hear ya bro. $700 is nothing to spend on a stock like a McMillan, Robertson, Masterclass.

However a bag riding composite or laminate with no adjustments, just a veeblock in the stock shouldn't be too hard to do for lets say 30 orders.

Hell I'll sand the exterior and finish it if I have too!

$1200 like I mentioned before is a stretch unless you use the Savage.

RHINOUT!

 

[AlNyhus]

FWIW:

I think that by building the gun to a 'dollar value', you would limit the success of the project right from the start.

My thoughts are that the appeal of this type of rifle would be it's ability to be used in a lot of different competitive events, not so much the lowest possible cost of the gun.....a 'more bang for the buck', deal. Not that it would have to be a high dollar piece...but with custom rifles, that's just the way things turn out. I can tell you from experience that the more the rules are restricted, the more expensive the gear becomes as everyone looks for a way to 'tweak' things just a bit.

The other way to approach this would be to have the rifles available only through a single source...everybody gets the same thing...a 'belly button' rifle, if you will. I'm not sure that most would go for this either, as many can do their own chambering, have an action or would like to use something different, can do their own stock work, etc.

The old saying "The devil is in the deatils" is sure true!

 

[Cochran]

NASCAR rifle

Remington, Savage or Winchester action. Can be trued but no aftermarket parts. ie..recoil lugs,bolt handles,firing pins,ect.
MBR stock or any MBR clone.. wood or fiberglass.
Max barrel lenght and taper.
Must be able to chamber factory Lapua 6BR cartridge.
20x max scope power.
Factory trigger ?
No muzzle brakes.
Conservative max weight limit. ie..heavy scope mounts or weighted stocks will require lighter barrels to make weight.

Jeff

 

[Aussie_bob]

Just limit it by weight, barrel chambering as in 6mmBR, barrel Twist rate and max length eg: 26". If you start limiting eveything you may as well go to Winchester and say look build this rifle with this action, Barrel, stock chambered in 6mmBR with a 6.5 to 20 scope and we will start a comp for it.

 

[Rust]

Well, George, the proprieter of GAP announed the release of his own action,a modified 700 clone) over on Snipershide. For about $600. Granted the specified clearances may be a bit more tactical rather than benchrest, $600 isn't bad for what amounts to a better than a fully blueprinted 700 action.

And we all know that George and his boys will do a batch of rifles for a group buy and he shouldn't have any trouble building to spec.

 

[ChrisNam]

I think it is an excellent idea, but please remember that other countries would defenitely want to participate and they will not have easy access to say Viper actions, Krieger barrels and McMillan stocks. Rather limit the weight, lenght, twist, scope strenght and lay down reamer specs - say no turn .072 necks.
In SA the F Class guys apparently have club competitions with 308's and issued ammo - it is apparently very popular specifically because it is affordable and everyone competes on an equal footing,not that I have any desires to ever again shoot a 308).
In Namibia both F Class and Benchrest are relatively small and struggling to gain any momentum - specificaly because of costs.
It will be wonderfull if both disciplines can participate in the same competition - more paticipants and new blood will become involved.
Keep the idea going and try to implementas soon as possible.

 

[rhino]

Good point on the GAP action, but my point about the Barnard is that it comes with a Trigger. Its a 3 lug design I believe as well.

I guess you could go with a cheaper trigger than Jewell, but that is generally what is standard. So your about $120 more for the Barnard action when you figure $200 for the Jewell?

Like I said I would really like a 6mmbr group buy rifle. Haeteca, M. King, Richard's, etc, or George would all be good.

Don't know if George would split with "the Hide's" marketing, but he could be asked.

RHINOUT!

 

[StephenPerry]

Editor in Chief
This will never work. You cannot obtain peak performance in all the types of shooting you have described in one gun. The 8 groove barrel does not exist in the benchrest world. You have put together all the hodge ideas of what you know into one rifle. Makes this your Summer project - build such a gun and compete with it in all the disciplines you have identified.
I think you could do what you talk about in 2 guns. One built to 10 1/2# BR standard and one for all the rest of the shooting you described.
You could take a LV BR gun put on a 1.35 Cruiser barrel and do some of the shooting you have described. But the one gun idea you describe is something for paper readers not paper shooters.
Stephen Perry

 

[LRCampos]

Hello, this is my first post. I am so new in Benchrest that I dont even have a dedicated gun for it. But in Brazil there is no such rifles, actions, barrels or stocks to buy. We have to travel to US to buy and import such components or complete guns.
So, I am reading very carefully this post of the Universal Bench Varmint Target Rifle.
Here are my point of view about it:
First of all, I would be one of the guys who would buy such gun! In fact, the discussion on this Forum has gave me lots of ideas and, most important, the components, the gunsmith and prices involved,as we pay around 60 to 150% import taxes).
We do have in Brazil a kind of benchrest competition at 200 and 300 meters. Such Universal Bench Varmint rifle is just perfect for our Match types. And it would be great to shoot a rifle suitable to compete in US !!
I really think it can be a great idea: limited costs involved and very good performance. If the pistol shooters could creat the IPDA from the IPSC, why you could not create this Universal Bench Varmint Target Rifle from specialized IBS matches? The principle to me appears to be the same.
By the way, it is a great Forum! I have learned a lot from my previous weeks as spectator. Thank you everyone!