Universal Bench Varmint Target Rifle--An Idea.

[rhino]

I have a Tikka M 695 the long action version. It is an awesome action for sure. Smooth as silk.

So the problem lies in procuring actions. If we all decided to go with the Tikka SA, then we would all be looking for them. Henc we might start a bidding war on the same action for in the end the same purpose.

Too bad they changed the action. The T 3's are not up to stuff from what I hear. Cosmetically and smoothness is there, but the chucked lug and other problems persist.

RHINOUT!

 

[nowler]

i think the idea is great. i do agree that everything would have to be spec'd down to the last detail or else it takes the point away from having it in the first place.

caliber wise, i'd go with 6mmbr. ammo is easily obtainable everywhere,i think) and it will shoot at 100 or 1000. i'd say the swiss match case might be a better caliber for the further out ranges but it is not very popular or readily available here in the uk and i am guessing it would be a nightmare to get in the states.

if stiller,or A N Other) made the actions, and a barrel supplier supplied them to stiller,or A N Other)and they chambered them all up, that would seem the fairest way to me to ensure that everyone was on a level playing field. pick a stock, and set of mounts and a scope, folk can bed it themselves if they want but everything else is identical to the next one. all rifles checked for trigger pull weight and a go/no-go gauge of certain dims can be used to ensure no-one has re-chambered theirs.......

a whole line up of guns exactly the same shooting factory ammo, or different factory ammo. maybe allow tuners? however, this would put the costs up.....

one thing to bare in mind is that on this side of the pond, we tend to get fleeced when ordering stuff in from the states. some shooters are paying in excess of 1100USD for a barrel job here in the UK. if the whole package was supplied, as a barrelled action etc. etc. then we'd just have to pay the import tax etc. and the VAT and it would probably work out as being a cheap way to get an accurate customish gun in the UK.

 

[savet06]

Speaking to the glue-in vs. pillar bedding option. If there are to be different formats of competition i.e. bench style, prone,f-class type), 1000 yd BR, etc I would imagine that the budget minded shooter might want to have the availability to change stocks if possible. That is, of course, if the eventual rules don't stipulate one stock type to run all matches.
If concern about pillar bedding being a gunsmith only function, then perhaps the consideration for a stock that is already pillared may come into play.
I have no experience with the Tikka action, but I like the idea of sticking with one brand of action across the field. A custom action would be, I think, more desireable only because it would keep tolerances more equal, but cost does climb considerably,though still under the $2,000 mark). But then it comes down to who to make this action?
That is a tough one, and one that I think your Tikka takes care of.

 

[LRCampos]

Moderator,
I really want to build a BR rifle exactly like your project. I agree with all the components,Stiller Predator action, Krieger barrel, Low Rider stock, jewell trigger etc). I notice that with all components,less scope and rings) the rifle would be around U$1.100,00 - U$1.200,00, but I think I have to ad the gunsmith cost.
So, which gunsmith would you recommend to bring this project to reality,at least for me) within the price range you imagined originally? Could you give me his email, so I can contact him?
Thank you and keep working on this idea, I would be one of its shooters.

 

[BoydAllen]

Just a suggestion...

I have a rifle that was built on a Viper action, and I have my own reamer that I leave at Stiller Precision. Because they have a record of my action's dimensions and do very good barreling work at a fair price, I find it really handy to be able to just have a barrel shipped to them and make arrangements by telephone as to how I want the job to be done,how much cylinder to leave at the back and how long overall). Since I am set up with a barrel vise and action wrench putting on the new barrel after it arrives is no problem. As far as stock work goes, I understand that Richard,the stock maker) does excellent work.

 

[ReedG]

We need to keep this idea progressing. Hasn't been a "thought" here since 5/5/06.

Been reading posts at benchrest.com about how expensive it is to put on a shoot and that lots of matches are seeing declining numbers of shooters. I think one of the factors is that to compete in BR shooting today just plain costs too much. The equipment alone is prohibitive in price, say nothing of the travel needed, etc.

To keep new shooters coming into competitive shooting we sorely need an "entry-level" class using "entry-level" equipment. I still think a Factory-based action is the only way to go if we want it to be entry level. Guys can upgrade to any class they want later on, but this class needs to be based on a hybrid or modified-factory type of rifle. No $1,000 rests, no $1,600 scopes, no $1,200 actions. A $1,500 limit for rifle and scope is very realistic and can make a very competitive package.

Let's keep the creative juices flowing on this project.

 

[Forum Boss]

Reed,

Thanks for bumping the thread. I would only reiterate what I've suggested before that, IMHO, a versatile rifle is the way to go--one that can shoot a variety of disciplines.

A good 1:10 6BR can Agg in the low twos at 100/200, and be fully competitive at 300m and 600 yards. I think a 1:8 may give up a tenth at 100, but as long as the gun is shooting in its own class it doesn't really matter if you can outshoot it with a full-race 6PPC.

I agree that coming up with an affordable action is the lynchpin to the project. I just wish there were viable choices other than a Remington or Savage. Ideas? The Barnard is just too expensive I fear.

 

[slappomatt]

what about just getting a rem or savage chambered in 6br from the oem. what would be min quantities be to get a custom chambered rifle for a major oem? remington uses a 1-9 for their 243 i believe so they already have the barrels. only thing they would need would be a reamer. It seems that would be the way to get the price down to where it would be affordable. as soon as you get a custom gunsmith involved it would just be too $$ for alot of people. and it would get rid of the variations. at least limit them. rem custom shop 40X single shot in 6br?????

 

[Wild_Bill]

How would this be a Remington XR100 in 6mmBR 26" 8 twist and a Weaver T24 or T36 on a 20moa base this would allow people to use a thumb hole stock with a reasonable barrel profile. Remington would have to be in on it and fit a match type barrel and by allowing a Weaver Target scope they are verry competative but still verry affordable. Teh 6mmBR is verry competative back to 1000 yards in F Class our major competitions shooting from 300 to 1000 yards have been one with a 6mmBR Varget and 107gr Sierra's you also could limit it to a 105-107gr Projectile only this will allow a shooter to use the projectile that shoots best in their barrel and we all know the BC's are verry similar between all of them. The trigger would have to stay as the 40X trigger fitted but it could be adjusted to a safe weight of pull. Now you could limit the scope to just one the T24 or T36 so the optics are identical but this would be another option. This would be an awsome class and the barrels would only be able to be replaced with a 26" 8 twist barrel of the same profile when worn out. Also must have a 271 or 272 neck no neck turning. IF this could be done it would be a great entry level rifle for a lot of competions like F Class and 600-1000BR as well as short range BR it would be better than a lot of older rifles shooter are starting with i also like the idea of Burris Z Rings you should be able to buy the complete rifle as a package with scope rings and ready to shoot.

Cheers Bill
Australia

 

[RDesJardin]

This is a great idea. Bring in new ones and give existing guys something new to try too.
Here is my input:
Remember NASCAR is Ford, Dodge, Chevy and Toyota
Any Factory action, Rem, Sav. Win. Rug. etc.

6mmBR sounds good, or 7mmBR is there an advantage of one over the other except for bullets? No neck turn chamber, have a "template" that must chamber to be legal.

Bullets hasn't been addressed, there is a big cost for custom bullets. And this could be a great equalizer if you could have a spec'd type bullet. I know a way but I doubt it will be well recieved. Cannelures or maybe poly tips only this is a low cost class right.

24" barrel .850 muzzle 8 twist cause you want to shoot close and LR. You can use light bullets in a fast twist but not the other way around.

The same stock style but any mfg.'s stock. I think maybe a cross between HBR and Tactical style.

20X max. scope but a variable, list approved scope mfg.'s and models. Keep high end models out.

Gun Wt. I don't think this is a big debating point, build a gun with the spec'd parts and what does it weigh? That's the wt. then add maybe .5-1#.

This gun is a new "universal class" competition gun, not for use in all existing classes, just all existing disciplines. Maybe a real across the course gun. No flame intended.

How about targets, let's consider this 10 shots, 1 5-shot group and then 5 score bulls all on one target, do this 3 times then add it up.

Rory DesJardin

 

[ANDY5]

I like the idea, this makes the shooter the only competetor. The rifle is not the big thing. When you would win, you would know that it was only you. Thats competition. Just add the class. We probably would almost all get into it anyway. Its more shooting.
andy5

 

[Forum Boss]

I like the idea, this makes the shooter the only competetor. The rifle is not the big thing. When you would win, you would know that it was only you. Thats competition. Just add the class. We probably would almost all get into it anyway. It's more shooting.
andy5

Andy,

Along these lines, imagine a line-up of a dozen identical Formula BR rifles, all "broken in" identically. An invitational group of champions from various disciplines is assembled: The Camp Perry Champ, Palma Champ, F-Class Champ, Super Shoot Champ, 600yd Shooter of the Year, Score BR Champ, World BR Champ, Varmint Jamboree Champ, Williamsport Grand Agg Winner, and 1K Shooter of the year. They draw lots and shoot a different numbered rifle in each relay--that would be an interesting Challenge. We might even do this as a "Pro-Am", with these guys teamed with "regular Joes" in two-man squads.

 

[jb77]

Paul lets make it 1 gun and ammunition from the same lot.

I Would pay to see the top shooters compete with just one rifle.

I know they can all shoot their own equipment. But lets see what happens when the the playing field is as level as we can make it.

 

[Tommie]

Interesting idea.

I don't think many people would participate. BR shooters are gear-heads and if the ability to add their own secret trick of the month is eliminated ... well, you know how that will fly.

And remember that the one body/chassis NASCAR concept is still in the experimental stage. By no means is this a proven formula for success and so far fan reaction has been lukewarm at best.

Tom

 

[rhino]

With the new Savage target action and stocks from Sharp shooter supply and the ability to order prefits. This concept could just break under the $1000 mark.

Your talking $400 for the action, $315 for the stock which leaves $285 for the barrel. These are just rough prices too...maybe you could get a better deal on the action..and I am sure we could get a deal on shilen barrels or something.

Also, maybe there should be a weight limit, a weight minimum, approved scope list, and possibly an equipment restriction as well.

Shooter A has a Farely rest while SHooter B has a Caldwell Rock.

Just some other things to mull over.

RHINOUT!

 

[Forum Boss]

Personally I think it's important to allow a premium barrel in the mix. All premium barrels aren't equally good however, of course, but with factory tubes you'll see huge variances in accuracy, "cleanability", and velocity. If we say everyone runs a Krieger 4-groove or Lilja 3-groove for example, I think the field will be much more even out of the gate.

I have the same issue with prefits--some are great, but I haven't seen compelling evidence that the chamber dimensions are really held that uniform from one barrel to the next. That, of course could change, if the barrel-maker really committed to a higher level of consistency.

 

[ReedG]

Just to throw in a pro-Savage thought, Shilen is now offering prechambered match barrels for Savage actions at $305/chrome moly, $335/stainless match, $380/select stainless match. With a $400 action, $380 select match barrel you can eliminate the expense of custom chambering and threading and/or truing an action. If everybody is happy with the MBR-style stock and we could get some inletted for the Savage action you would have a great start toward a great-shooting rifle. A stock with an aluminum bedding system,like the Savage LRPV) would be ideal but would be best with flat fore end and 3" wide. The Savage F Class stock might be useable.

If it is possible to limit the need for a professional gunsmith as much as possible, it would be better. I do NOT have anything against good gunsmiths, but they are all so busy they couldn't get anything out in a timely manner. Especially if we end up needing several hundred of them.

 

[RDesJardin]

Reed,
I agree with your idea, a easily obtainable action, bareel stock. New shooters and some old ones don't want to wait 4-6mo for an action or 3-4mo for a barrel.

 

[jtm]

It would have to be factory class say a 40x or youll still have tricky little tricks going on there are plenty of BR classes as it is.controlled scope as well?I really dont think it would work.As far as a level playing field goes its already there,the really consistent winners would still be the same people,they have trained are commited &talented All the best jim

 

[mechanic]

I like the idea and I think the Savage PTA with its supplied adjustable trigger at under $500.00, and a Shilen drop in barrel at $350.00, chambered, would be an excellent combo to start with. Just add stock and stir.

No one tells current BR shooters what caliber they have to shoot. Why should beginners be told which caliber to use? Why would you want to shoot something capable of going a 1000 yards if you are only shooting 100/200 yards? For the beginner on a budget, travel expence and ammo cost are a large factor to consider when competing.

So let's not forget with the number of anti-gunners growing across the USA we must support any means of introducing new shooters to the sport.

"Don't let the shooing sport die, let it multiply".

Ron