U.S. Army's New Sniper Rifle?

[Ray123]

For your consideration. Compare the capabilities of this rifle to the current M2010. Basically an off the shelf Remington 700. The most recent Mk13's have Stiller actions and an AI chassis which is a step up from an M2010.
A well trained sniper will never be replaced by AI.

I see you have made barrels for these rifles, good for you, nothing wrong with earning a living...So yeah, it should be better than an off the shelf Remington 700...for $20,000...how much do you really gain over an acurrized 700?
But NEVER is along time...and AI is already here, and expanding exponentially...picking up consciousness 8 yr old, and self aware, and many times more intelligent than our greatest human minds...you can no longer beat them at chess, today. In a few short years Terminators will arrive, with laser weapons and superior detection systems built in, a million of times more intelligent than a human, they have your whole profile, know everything about you in a fraction of a second...they never stop, they never eat, they never shit, capable of self repair, and wireless recharge. There are already some high tec sniper deturrents and detection systems....capable of following a bullet trace, and throwing thousands of rds in your hide area in a few seconds...probably 308 lol... What about China and Russia testing their hypersonic missiles, before ours were ready...making Aircraft carriers obsolete...they are so fast radar and conventional missiles are useless...they arrive before ya see em coming,... here now...and China is experinenting with genetically altering their human soldiers.

 

[CJ6]

I see you have made barrels for these rifles, good for you, nothing wrong with earning a living...So yeah, it should be better than an off the shelf Remington 700...for $20,000...how much do you really gain over an acurrized 700?
But NEVER is along time...and AI is already here, and expanding exponentially...picking up consciousness 8 yr old, and self aware, and many times more intelligent than our greatest human minds...you can no longer beat them at chess, today. In a few short years Terminators will arrive, with laser weapons and superior detection systems built in, a million of times more intelligent than a human, they have your whole profile, know everything about you in a fraction of a second...they never stop, they never eat, they never shit, capable of self repair, and wireless recharge. There are already some high tec sniper deturrents and detection systems....capable of following a bullet trace, and throwing thousands of rds in your hide area in a few seconds...probably 308 lol... What about China and Russia testing their hypersonic missiles, before ours were ready...making Aircraft carriers obsolete...they are so fast radar and conventional missiles are useless...they arrive before ya see em coming,... here now...and China is experinenting with genetically altering their human soldiers.

You're right of course. The military should turn in all it's current weapons and wait for the new robots to deal with everything. Better yet forget the robots just hit'em from space. everyone send all they're current reloading supplies/ammo to my place for robot distruction.

 

[Ray123]

You're right of course. The military should turn in all it's current weapons and wait for the new robots to deal with everything. Better yet forget the robots just hit'em from space. everyone send all they're current reloading supplies/ammo to my place for robot distruction.

Yep, ...watch out for those "God Rods" from space, they are reportedly very nasty for the bad guys...but if you are among the earths survivors And deemed a good citizen of earth, the mighty all knowing government will reward you with your good credit score, a government wage, with no work involved. So you stay at home creating your own reality with your goggles on viewing the world on your terms...the handsome super hero. Even your AI robot mate, which has sexually appropriate genitalia, for your needs, agrees with your every thought, your every whim, until your imaginary life is perfect. The future's so bright, ya gotta wear goggles....

 

[David Milisock]

David, listen to Walt and Tooley. They've been around the turnip patch many times. I understand the point that you are posting.

If you think the sniper rifles bad the new Sig in 6.8x51 as issued with electronic sight, suppressor and a full 20 round magazine is 16 pounds.

 

[DaveTooley]

I'm sure most have seen the movie Lone Survivor. AI will never replace boots on the ground. AI as an option and an aid, yes. Anyone's light weight, erector set toys wouldn't last very long. Rifles are tossed, thrown, dropped, run over and just plain go through hell that most of us can't imagine. After that they must function flawlessly. As for price. I worked for one manufacturer for the first two tries at getting a new rifle. Each of the three trials had different requirements. The price to develop and submit a system is very very high.

 

[jdh47]

That's true. Meeting requirements is an expensive proposition. Then there's that political aspect. I was told by a guy that was there that the Ruger beat out the Baretta but the government wanted to use Italian airspace so they gave the contract to Baretta.

 

[Rtheurer]

The price to develop and submit a system is very very high.

And it is very very apparent that about 90% of the guys who commented on this post have no clue how that all works and the expense it takes by the vendor to get a piece of gear approved. Pretty funny whne they say they can buy 4 high quality rifles for the same price...but have no clue the expense it takes to get that rifle in the NSN system.

 

[DaveTooley]

Here's an good example.
Barrett from Murfreesboro TN won the contract. Not Beretta. Ruger was never there. Totally Asinine

In this case it's easy to get a number. Win and you're in. But then there's number for the accessories and replacement parts. The amount of paperwork is staggering.

 

[300_whisper]

I didn’t read the article, but I’m in the field right now with an infantry battalion, and their CAV scouts and HHC Scout detachment have HK762A1 with Sig MSR 1x10 scopes. It’s the coolest thing I’ve ever seen. The dudes who have them have been to sniper school but are full filling a DMR role.

Just my 2 cents for the day. Carry on.

 

[butchlambert]

In years gone by my Son worked at Rockwell-Collins Radio when in college. My best friend of over 60yrs was an engineer there at the same time. If you only knew the research and everything they had to go through. I was able to see why crapper seats were a couple thou each. All parts had to meet a mill spec and that was down to staples and wood screws.

 

[David Milisock]

I'm sure most have seen the movie Lone Survivor. AI will never replace boots on the ground. AI as an option and an aid, yes. Anyone's light weight, erector set toys wouldn't last very long. Rifles are tossed, thrown, dropped, run over and just plain go through hell that most of us can't imagine. After that they must function flawlessly. As for price. I worked for one manufacturer for the first two tries at getting a new rifle. Each of the three trials had different requirements. The price to develop and submit a system is very very high.

I'll add that after all that money spent you can't blame those submitting if the product is not what experienced shooters would want. WOW 24 pounds! How does that work when you have to move?

 

[DaveTooley]

Here's the weights for a bare rifle. Understand that after submission, then inspection to meet some basic requirements the first range test is accuracy. I'll use every ounce they give to get past that. Been there done that twice actually three times if you count the M24/XM2010 submission.
338 Norma Magnum: 15.2 lbs.
.300 Norma Magnum: 15.1 lbs.
7.62x51mm NATO: 13.9 lbs.
Then add optics, suppressor and loaded mags. Seems down right reasonable to me.

 

[David Milisock]

Here's the weights for a bare rifle. Understand that after submission, then inspection to meet some basic requirements the first range test is accuracy. I'll use every ounce they give to get past that. Been there done that twice actually three times if you count the M24/XM2010 submission.
338 Norma Magnum: 15.2 lbs.
.300 Norma Magnum: 15.1 lbs.
7.62x51mm NATO: 13.9 lbs.
Then add optics, suppressor and loaded mags. Seems down right reasonable to me.

Do you know what sighted, suppressed and loaded weight is? I saw the new Sig start out at being heavy but not awful, (I believe around 9+ pounds), that blossomed to 16 pounds with the sight, suppressor and a full magazine.

I have a 16.1 pound 35 magnum built over 30 years ago. That weight is with the sight and loaded, no suppressor. It was built to shoot heavy game at long range, I never had to maneuver to go get them or evade them as they never shoot back

 

[jdh47]

Dave I was talking about the trials in 82 I think just before Desert Storm and Ruger did participate with their pistol. I won't mention who it was that told me, but he was indeed there. Butch knows him pretty well.

 

[DaveTooley]

Dave I was talking about the trials in 82 I think just before Desert Storm and Ruger did participate with their pistol. I won't mention who it was that told me, but he was indeed there. Butch knows him pretty well.

Not sure what that has to do with the Mk22 rifle.

 

[DaveTooley]

Do you know what sighted, suppressed and loaded weight is? I saw the new Sig start out at being heavy but not awful, (I believe around 9+ pounds), that blossomed to 16 pounds with the sight, suppressor and a full magazine.

I have a 16.1 pound 35 magnum built over 30 years ago. That weight is with the sight and loaded, no suppressor. It was built to shoot heavy game at long range, I never had to maneuver to go get them or evade them as they never shoot back

I don't know what the all in weight is. They hang so much stuff on these rifles these days and that depends on which unit. The closer you get to the tip of the spear the bigger the budget and they can buy more toys.

 

[David Milisock]

I don't know what the all in weight is. They hang so much stuff on these rifles these days and that depends on which unit. The closer you get to the tip of the spear the bigger the budget and they can buy more toys.

Having been shot at I am a huge proponent of maneuverability, I see the current mentality of adding technology and weight over the ability to shoot and move as a something to pay attention to.

Combat rifles for me have to handle like a part of the body, in close really fast. Out far I have no problem with them having enough weight for a heavy barrel but not so much as the better choice is to dump your rifle and use a secondary weapon. I think the modular multi-cartridge concept is great as long as it does not become a deficit in terms of weight.

Technology is great but the varied field environments make the well trained and experienced human mind the best technology available.

 

[DaveTooley]

Having been shot at I am a huge proponent of maneuverability, I see the current mentality of adding technology and weight over the ability to shoot and move as a something to pay attention to.

Combat rifles for me have to handle like a part of the body, in close really fast. Out far I have no problem with them having enough weight for a heavy barrel but not so much as the better choice is to dump your rifle and use a secondary weapon. I think the modular multi-cartridge concept is great as long as it does not become a deficit in terms of weight.

Technology is great but the varied field environments make the well trained and experienced human mind the best technology available.

Agreed
The Mk22 will be issued in limited numbers compared to other systems. Part of the 6.8X51's goal is to extend the range of squad level weapons out to 600 yds. As we know most engagements are much closer than that no matter what we see in the movies. I think there will always be a place for a short barreled M4.

 

[Rtheurer]

Going in and out of the Armory I see all type's of rifles, This is just one more tool for the Tool Box. Do the people reading this think that the other systems are just tossed in the Trash and not available to the soldier or the commander's on the ground? The big limit most times is the diconnect between the ASP and mission at hand. Sure we have a M107 or a M24 (2010 ) but all we have for ammo is Ball Ammo... Happens all the time.
I suspect that the 338 barrels will remain on the rifles more often than any of them as it will fill that long range intradiction roll from a Static position. Weight wont matter all that much while inside a Combat out post ( COP ) Chances of making a hit are much higher with a HIGH BC bullet in variable wind conditions ( same for the 300 WIn Mag over the 308)
Having spent 37 Months in Shit gan a stan, I can see this platform used in a multitude of rolls.
This idea from the 50's 60's 70's and 80's where one platform will and has to fill all of your mission requirements is old thinking. No one tool fills every need.
Now if we can just be better in the S2 shop of Inteligence....that would help.

Of course there is no substitute for a pair of Apachee's and or A10 on station for back up... Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrt.....

 

[David Milisock]

Agreed
The Mk22 will be issued in limited numbers compared to other systems. Part of the 6.8X51's goal is to extend the range of squad level weapons out to 600 yds. As we know most engagements are much closer than that no matter what we see in the movies. I think there will always be a place for a short barreled M4.

The reality of close engagement demands a rifle like the short barreled rifle so it's not going away. I'm way too old to be surprised by the military procurement process however it would be nice for them to recognize that they need a new platform for a general purpose rifle. The AR 15 and 10 just don't cut it any longer.

They have at least 2 good cartridges with the ARC and the Grendel they just need a more robust platform than the current AR15/M4. Beef up the bolt, the carrier and the buffer, push pressures to bolt rifle levels and they have the same manual of arms in a rifle that goes to 600 easily and works like an M2 carbine in urban and CQB. Hell my 16" AR in 6MM ARC with low pressure loads is as fast in close as any M2 or M4 I've handled and 600 yards in wind is a real possibility.

I've watched drills being run with the new (I believe it's called) M5 and from my observations it's has serious handling problems. TOO, heavy, TOO slow, TOO MUCH recoil. With that said I believe they should have bought it for special purposes. To have 2 of these in a squad would have benefits.

As far as rifle work, I bet it would amaze people how much work is done well inside 400 yards. If I were king, I'd make everyone talk about their misses! We all hear about that far out hit but no one talks about that far out miss or for that matter the close in miss. Plenty to talk about there. ;-)