U.S. Army's New Sniper Rifle?

[David Milisock]

Okay . Here is what I found out regarding all of the "Official" Sniper ammo used during the Vietnam War . You have to be aware that some munitions used were Un-officially "issued" , used , and "It never happened" . Because then , just as now , there was a "Political" component involved , along with the International Rules of Engagement .

Initial Issue : 7.62 x 51 Special Ball : ( NATO ) 147gr. Discontinued ...Ineffective . Various Mfg.

Standard Issue Sniper Ammo : M-118 "Special Ball" . 173gr Bullet . Various manufacturers . Mostly L.C.

Other "Issue" Sniper Ammo : M-118 "Special Ball" - LR . 168gr. Bullet . Manufacturer Unknown ( Hmmm )
No data available regarding manufacturer of this round . But consensus is that this round carried the 168gr SMK . Under the Geneva Convention and International Rules of Land Warfare , the SMK was "deemed" to be illegal due to having a HP nose , later to be "Legalized" in Court . So ; It was there , but it wasn't there .

The M-852 round was developed by the Navy and Federal Cartridge in the late 70's , early 80's . And it is currently known as the Federal Gold Medal Match round . And early rounds carried the 168gr SMK .

Anybody that served in the Nam knows that things were done there that were not always within the rules , so why does anyone think ammo for a Sniper would be any different ? My Dad sent me Hand-loads that were one hell-of-a lot more accurate than anything I was ever issued . Did I know what bullet was in them? No ! Did I freakin care ? Not only No ...But Hell NO ! And the thought they might be "Illegal" never entered my mind . They worked . Gave us more range and better accuracy . My "IN-country" was 69 - 71 .

It is a fact, it was there but wasn't there. I've been, or haven't been in places like that.

Facts are this, today was built on our experiences from yesterday. Yesterday was interesting but in terms of repeatable rifle accuracy nothing like today. Today you can log onto a web site and order in a $1,300 AR 15 that can produce 1/2" groups at 100 yards. I know I did it about 3 months ago.

I like the weapon system, it allows the shooter to work from a base and change their rifle for the conditions intelligence reports to them for the next mission. Is it too expensive? Yes! Can intelligence be faulty? DUH!

My experience in the 70's, you got your mission, your rifle from the armorer, the ammo for it and you creeped your way into effective range. Or you had a cover mission, in any case you had to work with the one rifle you could carry.

As a shooter back then you had to make it fit, it would have been nice to have a wide selection of accurate rifles and cartridges. The reality is this, in the end you can't carry 5 rifles into the field so, you get your mission, your rifle, the ammo and YOU make it fit. A 300 magnum is far more versatile then any 7.62x51.

 

[jackieschmidt]

If I get drafted again, maybe I will get to try out this new package.

Until then, I will stick with what punches small groups in paper and wins Benchrest Matches and leave the thoughts of blowing a persons brains out at 1500 yards to those that have the mind set for that sort of thing.

I do still have my old Corcoran Jump Boots. If I feel the need to go “all military”, I can get out the cotton balls and Kiwi and think about the good old days.

 

[wbm]

U.S. Army's New Sniper Rifle?

Ah crap! Not another one!

 

[22BRGUY]

This thing doesn't do anything for me either.

 

[Fuj]

I do still have my old Corcoran Jump Boots. If I feel the need to go “all military”, I can get out the cotton balls and Kiwi and think about the good old days.

When I made squad leader in our mortar platoon, they had to be
extra shiny. Corcorans were non issue for us but could get a pair
for parade. They were lousy in the bush for humping. Other then
that.....In Panama they were still selling 3.2 Schiltz at the PX. First
shirt could get us some Lone Star for bivouac. He was from Austin
and well connected with supply.....As you were....

 

[Herzo]

In the meantime, SIG has developed the 6.8 X 51 which should handle 80% of the situations nicely.

 

[Fuj]

Pic grab.....

 

[M14AMU]

Maybe they'll color the stock in LGBT colors for the new 'queer military'!!

 

[jackieschmidt]

In the meantime, SIG has developed the 6.8 X 51 which should handle 80% of the situations nicely.

270/308?

 

[Herzo]

Probably might be considered a 270/308 Ackley Improved

 

[Ray123]

Sounds way over budget. Its only a common rifle....with a weight of 24 lbs! Not counting the weight of all the variety of calibers of rounds you need to carry for your various engagements through out the day. And don't lose your barrel changing wrench. This thing is a tactical boat anchor. A hiding enemy will take this heavy bolt rifle carrying dude out with an AK burst at close range...or a new AI weapon. With all the new technologies, computer controlled, AI weapons systems, and robots not much future in spending such large sums of money on a mechanical, human manipulated out dated bolt action rife, that has barrel changing capabilities, is unimpressive in my opinion.The 308 will still do most of the work needed in this very limited area of warfare without all the barrels, weight, and confusion of what caliber am I shooting when the shit instantly hits the fan, and plan A didn't go down as planned.

 

[DaveTooley]

For your consideration. Compare the capabilities of this rifle to the current M2010. Basically an off the shelf Remington 700. The most recent Mk13's have Stiller actions and an AI chassis which is a step up from an M2010.
A well trained sniper will never be replaced by AI.

 

[majohnson]

One of my nephews works at Crane Naval Base and he showed us this rifle at least 2 years ago (maybe 3) at Christmas.
I kind of agree with cw BUT I can't think of a reason not to give our guys as good as can be made. That price does get me though

Remington is out of business, can you imagine the panic at the army wondering where are we going to get a good bolt action rifle.

 

[David Milisock]

Sounds way over budget. Its only a common rifle....with a weight of 24 lbs! Not counting the weight of all the variety of calibers of rounds you need to carry for your various engagements through out the day. And don't lose your barrel changing wrench. This thing is a tactical boat anchor. A hiding enemy will take this heavy bolt rifle carrying dude out with an AK burst at close range...or a new AI weapon. With all the new technologies, computer controlled, AI weapons systems, and robots not much future in spending such large sums of money on a mechanical, human manipulated out dated bolt action rife, that has barrel changing capabilities, is unimpressive in my opinion.The 308 will still do most of the work needed in this very limited area of warfare without all the barrels, weight, and confusion of what caliber am I shooting when the shit instantly hits the fan, and plan A didn't go down as planned.

I think this is a pencil pushers concept. I understand that they see the sniper deployed from a base and this weapon system giving them options but wow 24 pounds! Without a spotter and protection this limits the shooter in my opinion.

Of course my experiance is nearly 50 years old. My experience made many calibers in Winchester and Remington rifles available to me as I had an armorer who was inventive. I'd say 75% of the time an 06 or 7.62x51 was my choice, mostly the 06. However I did use some custom heavy 30's and I liked them. Today I'd lean toward a set of 10 pound rifles in 300 and 338 Norma with recoil reducing pads. NOTE 10 pounds. I also carried a secondary self loading rifle and a side arm.

I've been shooting 6MM for 40 years in 6MM Remington and I find that the caliber has some utility. For my old age I put together a 6MM ARC with a 16" barrel in an AR 15 and a tactical scope as a truck gun. It shoots so well that I'm putting together a second upper with a 24" barrel and a precision scope. I've seen interesting work way out there.

HAND LOADERS AND CUSTOM BUILDERS BEWARE! Duplicating published loads EXACTLY is a must and NO light bolt carriers.

To the point I wish I had that AR in 6MM ARC 50 years ago. It runs rings around the 30 calibers of my day and edges out the non-magnum 30's of today in a self loading light low recoiling package. It would do 75% of what I did 50 years ago and I believe do it better.

Some new things are good and for me this has promise. It's so quick to change uppers you can carry both a long range and CQB rig with you at all times.

 

[David Milisock]

For your consideration. Compare the capabilities of this rifle to the current M2010. Basically an off the shelf Remington 700. The most recent Mk13's have Stiller actions and an AI chassis which is a step up from an M2010.
A well trained sniper will never be replaced by AI.

Can you image 10+ days of creeping and having to haul ass for a couple days to be extracted carrying all your gear and a 24 pound rifle? Not my first choice!

A well trained soldier deserves a rifle that fits their needs, not be an automaton tied to a machine that's as much of a burden as an asset.

 

[Walt Krafft]

The 24 pounds is the whole kit. When going on a mission, the soldier would only take from the kit what is needed for that mission.

 

[butchlambert]

Can you image 10+ days of creeping and having to haul ass for a couple days to be extracted carrying all your gear and a 24 pound rifle? Not my first choice!

A well trained soldier deserves a rifle that fits their needs, not be an automaton tied to a machine that's as much of a burden as an asset.

David, listen to Walt and Tooley. They've been around the turnip patch many times. I understand the point that you are posting.

 

[M14AMU]

Can you image 10+ days of creeping and having to haul ass for a couple days to be extracted carrying all your gear and a 24 pound rifle? Not my first choice!

A well trained soldier deserves a rifle that fits their needs, not be an automaton tied to a machine that's as much of a burden as an asset.

Call Putin!

 

[DaveTooley]

I've done several barrels for this rifle. The extension does add a good bit of weight to the barrel but every system has its plus and minuses.

 

[Ray123]

My only question is why did they "Ham-string" the .308 with a 20" barrel , when any F Class shooter on the planet knows that 28" should be a minimum , for a thousand yard shot , with any accuracy . Unless they "NEW" thinking is that old caliber is only for Urban Ops , and a 300 yard shot . You don't have to have a Super Magnum for a thousand yard kill . Just a good trigger puller , with a good .308 ....

Yes, I agree, I built a 308 on a long action 30" 8 twist heavy palma, alum chasis, with 30-06 detachable mags...about 14 lbs, very cheap and very accurate compared to these government numbers...I have built 8 308s autos and bolts to see whats possible with new components available...not the old standard 168 MK loads, everyone recites.
Set up for high velocity 200 to 230 gr bullets...200 SMK, 2856 fps .715 BC, 225 ELDM .777 BC 2675 fps, 230 ATips 2640 fps .823 BC all G1.
Just put a light weight 18" AR 10 together, it will single load 200 gr SMK .715 BC to well over 2666 ave in new barrel...but need a 9 twist barrel for long range. And these guns will also shoot the battlefield ammo found anywhere, even on the ground, in case of emergency, when things don't go as planned.