Tuning AR Varmint for softest recoil 223

[BobbyJ]

There's alot that goes into the developing the skill set of a great field rifleman. It starts with an accurate rifle tested on the bench, then proceeds into training for real world conditions. It's a huge deal learning how to stalk, take a solid firing position in a world filled with crap conditions, (heat, cold, rain, snow insects, snakes, wind and unstable rests) to mention a few, then really estimate range and make the hit on a target that may give you 10 to 20 seconds of opportunity.

I agree with that. I have field experience vs Deer up to 200 yards so far no misses. But that is a long way from shooting tiny PDs at 300 yards.

Yes this stage is really to see what the guns can do and to take "Me" out of the equation. I think at least 1/2 of those groups are "Me" and not the gun. Meaning I think they could improve with better table and wind conditions. I don't mind a constant wind but when you take a shot with a 10 mph wind then during the next shot it gusts up to 20 mph its difficult to group.

Then the ammo could be blamed and powder choice can be called into question too.

I wish I could lock it in a vise on no wind day and remotely pull the trigger and have the gun not budge between shots. Then I would know how the gun + ammo combo performs in ideal conditions.

After that Maybe practice 1 shot hits on tiny targets to get accuracy and not just precision (good groups)
Notice how most people that shoot good groups never hit the bullseye? They don't care all they want are good groups. Stage 2 is to hit what you aim at.

I don't get buck fever though, no choking under live animal fire. So doubt that will be an issue with Prairie dogs.

I don't have much experiece with long range (300+) on tiny targets so playing the wind out west will probably be a challange. The only way I can simulate that is using a PCP pellet gun which have terrible bcs and blow all over in the wind.

 

[David Milisock]

I agree with that. I have field experience vs Deer up to 200 yards so far no misses. But that is a long way from shooting tiny PDs at 300 yards.

Yes this stage is really to see what the guns can do and to take "Me" out of the equation. I think at least 1/2 of those groups are "Me" and not the gun. Meaning I think they could improve with better table and wind conditions. I don't mind a constant wind but when you take a shot with a 10 mph wind then during the next shot it gusts up to 20 mph its difficult to group.

Then the ammo could be blamed and powder choice can be called into question too.

I wish I could lock it in a vise on no wind day and remotely pull the trigger and have the gun not budge between shots. Then I would know how the gun + ammo combo performs in ideal conditions.

After that Maybe practice 1 shot hits on tiny targets to get accuracy and not just precision (good groups)
Notice how most people that shoot good groups never hit the bullseye? They don't care all they want are good groups. Stage 2 is to hit what you aim at.

I don't get buck fever though, no choking under live animal fire. So doubt that will be an issue with Prairie dogs.

I don't have much experiece with long range (300+) on tiny targets so playing the wind out west will probably be a challange. The only way I can simulate that is using a PCP pellet gun which have terrible bcs and blow all over in the wind.

Well, you're 70% there already, you know what you need to learn. I have an AR15 A2, in Delta Configuration, it's chambered in 5.56 x 45, 1 in 7 twist, I have no issues with taking groundhogs at 300 yards with my reloads (I take body shots with the A2) and in good wind man sized targets out to 600+ with iron sights a bit more with the scope. That's because my A2 reloads use 69 Grain match bulletts. Lousy drop in my opinion.

My 233 bolt varmint rifle shoots 40 grain VMAX at 3,900 FPS, it's a 1 in 12 twist, I regularly take head shots on chucks out to 350. I have made kills on chucks at 400+ with this rifle. The 40 grain is a vastly superior chuck projectile because the high velocity produces less wind deflection and drop than heavier weights in a 223. It makes range estimates easier and handle wind eddy currents much better.

 

[BobbyJ]

Well, you're 70% there already, you know what you need to learn. I have an AR15 A2, in Delta Configuration, it's chambered in 5.56 x 45, 1 in 7 twist, I have no issues with taking groundhogs at 300 yards with my reloads (I take body shots with the A2) and in good wind man sized targets out to 600+ with iron sights a bit more with the scope. That's because my A2 reloads use 69 Grain match bulletts. Lousy drop in my opinion.

My 233 bolt varmint rifle shoots 40 grain VMAX at 3,900 FPS, it's a 1 in 12 twist, I regularly take head shots on chucks out to 350. I have made kills on chucks at 400+ with this rifle. The 40 grain is a vastly superior chuck projectile because the high velocity produces less wind deflection and drop than heavier weights in a 223. It makes range estimates easier and handle wind eddy currents much better.

Yea hard to beat a bolt with a semi. I'm not certain what I'll use for bullets. Mostly shot 53 and 69 gr but have 36s, 40s, 50s just not had time to load them. The 53gr Vmax was based on BC and explosive factor and on paper buck the wind better than even the 40s. But wont be getting 3900 fps. More like 3350 for the 53s and 2800 fps for the 69s and 3800 for the 40s.

Curious what load do you use to get 3900 out of the 40s? The gas system robs around 70fps or so vs bolt and maybe a true 223 chamber gets a little more velocity over a whyled chamber.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Don't over think prairie dog shooting. Get the wind/Sun behind you as much as possible. Beware of what's behind your targets. Work close to far. The wind is always the trick, every cartridge is a hold off or dial 250+ yards with crosswinds(3-9,9-3) 7+ mph. The earlier in the summer, smaller dogs more windage problems. Quarter moa group's won't help you adjust for wind.

 

[BobbyJ]

Don't over think prairie dog shooting. Get the wind/Sun behind you as much as possible. Beware of what's behind your targets. Work close to far. The wind is always the trick, every cartridge is a hold off or dial 250+ yards with crosswinds(3-9,9-3) 7+ mph. The earlier in the summer, smaller dogs more windage problems. Quarter moa group's won't help you adjust for wind.

Appreciate the words of wisdom. Yea I prefer not to think at all would rather just shoot by "feel" but all I have is time an no PD to shoot at for a year or so. I'm sure all that thinking will go out the window once there.
I'm not use to seeing my misses via dirt flying up, its too green here if you miss you have no idea if its high low left or right unless its a target.

Should be a fun challenge and talking to people that have done it gets me more motivation to dump the money + driving + ammo etc. One of my buddies would rather go Elk hunting for the cost involved. I can't just walk out in my backyard like some of you guys and shoot PD.

 

[David Milisock]

Yea hard to beat a bolt with a semi. I'm not certain what I'll use for bullets. Mostly shot 53 and 69 gr but have 36s, 40s, 50s just not had time to load them. The 53gr Vmax was based on BC and explosive factor and on paper buck the wind better than even the 40s. But wont be getting 3900 fps. More like 3350 for the 53s and 2800 fps for the 69s and 3800 for the 40s.

Curious what load do you use to get 3900 out of the 40s? The gas system robs around 70fps or so vs bolt and maybe a true 223 chamber gets a little more velocity over a whyled chamber.

I use a 40 Grain Hornaday VMAX Moly, in a Howa 1500 bolt rifle with a moly treated bore, the load is 29 grains of H322, I drop it into Malaysian military brass because it holds a grain and a half more powder than any other bras I could find. Lucky for me I got 1,000 once fired for $5.00. My experience is to forget H322 in an AR it's just the wrong burn rate, I use Varget, (maybe 20 grains or so) and Hornady 69 grains match, not sure they're available anymore.

This is a factory rifle and I expect that it has free bore to spare, bullets are seated to just cycle in the internal magazine. I don't shoot 100 yard groups, but the rifle averages 1 1/16" 300 yard groups, some more some less, I've had as low as 7/8" and as high as 1 1/4".

It took quite a while to find the right combination. It started because 55 grain and other heavier weights were grouping well in low wind but the wind in my area of PA is not conducive to slow 223 loads at 300+ yards, spreading groups to 3 1/2", the eddy currents of terraced farm fields bites, plus the drop sucked. Maybe I just couldn't find the right powder for may rifle with the 55 grain.

I screwed around for better than a year and found the load, I can push the 40 grain 600 FPS faster than the 55 grain and it groups much better in the wind. It's not as good grouping in calm or no wind about 1/16" worse, but low or no wind never happens in my area of the world.

The reality the lesser sectional density and ballistic coefficient of the 40 was moot when you compared the reduced time of flight in the wind.

 

[mac86951]

I agree with that. I have field experience vs Deer up to 200 yards so far no misses. But that is a long way from shooting tiny PDs at 300 yards.

Yes this stage is really to see what the guns can do and to take "Me" out of the equation. I think at least 1/2 of those groups are "Me" and not the gun. Meaning I think they could improve with better table and wind conditions. I don't mind a constant wind but when you take a shot with a 10 mph wind then during the next shot it gusts up to 20 mph its difficult to group.

Then the ammo could be blamed and powder choice can be called into question too.

I wish I could lock it in a vise on no wind day and remotely pull the trigger and have the gun not budge between shots. Then I would know how the gun + ammo combo performs in ideal conditions.

After that Maybe practice 1 shot hits on tiny targets to get accuracy and not just precision (good groups)
Notice how most people that shoot good groups never hit the bullseye? They don't care all they want are good groups. Stage 2 is to hit what you aim at.

I don't get buck fever though, no choking under live animal fire. So doubt that will be an issue with Prairie dogs.

I don't have much experiece with long range (300+) on tiny targets so playing the wind out west will probably be a challange. The only way I can simulate that is using a PCP pellet gun which have terrible bcs and blow all over in the wind.

Questions:. What trigger are you running, and where do you place your thumb when you shoot? IE if you wrap around the pistol grip, try resting your thumb along side not wrapping around.
-Mac

 

[BobbyJ]

Questions:. What trigger are you running, and where do you place your thumb when you shoot? IE if you wrap around the pistol grip, try resting your thumb along side not wrapping around.
-Mac

Not sure on the trigger its some drop in my kid gave me. Could be a Timmy dunno. I can ask him. Its better than a standard AR trigger on my Colt LEs and way better than like the triggers you get on Palmetto Armory.
Its good enough.

My issues are range conditions Tables and even shooting the the AR with my 3M peltier Headsets. They don't have the comb of traditional stock always feel like I have to crank my head at strange angle to get center in the scope. I don't have that issue with bolt guns and no easy way to fix that on AR other than maybe raising the scope super high.

But on the thumb? You know I'll have to look its one of those things I dont think about, but I'll take your advise old dogs can learn new tricks!

 

[mac86951]

Not sure on the trigger its some drop in my kid gave me. Could be a Timmy dunno. I can ask him. Its better than a standard AR trigger on my Colt LEs and way better than like the triggers you get on Palmetto Armory.
Its good enough.

My issues are range conditions Tables and even shooting the the AR with my 3M peltier Headsets. They don't have the comb of traditional stock always feel like I have to crank my head at strange angle to get center in the scope. I don't have that issue with bolt guns and no easy way to fix that on AR other than maybe raising the scope super high.

But on the thumb? You know I'll have to look its one of those things I dont think about, but I'll take your advise old dogs can learn new tricks!

ARs respond to a good trigger too; though without starting a debate, just about everything is better than a $15 mil-spec fcg. Sounds like you're already there.

-Mac