Tuning and vertical dispersion

[VLNBYR]

Were you able to improve on that when you got it home?

Gerry

You can't duplicate conditions and I don't use computer analysis. The bullet goes where you want it to go.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

You can't duplicate conditions and I don't use computer analysis. The bullet goes where you want it to go.

And you are doing an excellent job making it go where you want it to! whatever you found at Lapua which is what I believe you are shooting certainly works great.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yes, and that single 25 shot group is a lot different than the average of five 5 shot groups. And I'm guessing that's for a "competitive" rifle.

The absolute top "winning" rifles/ammo probably shoot that group in the low 2's if not high teens. Is that the case?

Gerry

Gerry,

You had asked about what to use to tune with and I had said use the most consistent lot to find the setting for your setup or you will never know if you found the best setting. below is a target I recently shot in our monthly club match.
I used CX I got from Lapua as well as 2 other lots to find the setting for this rifle a Match 54 benchmark barrel. the target was shot with Lapua Pistol King, untested just a random brick I bought, it was the first time I used it in a match. a friend who likes to use the ontargets software scored the target and this is what it came out to be. the match target score 250-21X
the 25-shot group size per the computer calculation was .281 that is only .005 difference from the 0.276 I mentioned earlier.
this is why I say use the best you have to tune with, so anything below that will /should shoot to the capability of that lot. you know the standard to look for when tuned with your best lot.

Lee

 

[shortine]

Well, I tried to tune with the X-act by Hopewell. By the end the gnats and sweat in my eyes weren't helping. I'll try those last six settings over again.

Gerry

 

[linekin]

Well, I tried to tune with the X-act by Hopewell. By the end the gnats and sweat in my eyes weren't helping. I'll try those last six settings over again.View attachment 1272690

Gerry

Obviously the groups shot at 249 & 250 look the best, both visually & by your measurements. I'd like to see those confirmed with both your Xact & Center-X. Maybe larger groups as well.
What I find weird, & I have seen this myself, is the horizontal dispersion with such a minute change of the tuner, 251 & 253. It would be interesting to see those shot again as well just to see if the same happens.
But beware!, we'll have you broke & out of ammo before to long! LOL

Keith

 

[shortine]

Obviously the groups shot at 249 & 250 look the best, both visually & by your measurements. I'd like to see those confirmed with both your Xact & Center-X. Maybe larger groups as well.
What I find weird, & I have seen this myself, is the horizontal dispersion with such a minute change of the tuner, 251 & 253. It would be interesting to see those shot again as well just to see if the same happens.
But beware!, we'll have you broke & out of ammo before to long! LOL

Keith

Keith,

I think you meant vertical. That could very well be sweat, gnats, and tired eyes. I'm going to re-shoot that series. I'm already broke, and I don't see any Lapua ammunition on the horizon.

Gerry

 

[VLNBYR]

There is a fundamental flaw in the ammo selection process for tuning. If you have a really good rifle and use really good ammo it becomes almost impossible to see differences in tuner settings. Even if you do see differences it can be very difficult to pin it down to tuner change. I suggest getting a slower lot (23 speed) and a faster lot (30 speed) and do a tune with each separately then a tune of one then the other. Fool around with each of the 3 settings and see what develops. Tuning is no substitute for a poor rifle or poor ammo.

 

[shortine]

Well, I don't think it's a poor rifle, or poor ammo....maybe a poor shooter.

Lee, thanks for the target,

Gerry

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

There is a fundamental flaw in the ammo selection process for tuning. If you have a really good rifle and use really good ammo it becomes almost impossible to see differences in tuner settings. Even if you do see differences it can be very difficult to pin it down to tuner change. I suggest getting a slower lot (23 speed) and a faster lot (30 speed) and do a tune with each separately then a tune of one then the other. Fool around with each of the 3 settings and see what develops. Tuning is no substitute for a poor rifle or poor ammo.

Not so much a problem if the rifle is tuned and shooting good. but in this case IMO you have to use the best and most consistent when trying to find a tune for a new rifle.
sort of a catch 22 situation, you need good ammo to tune, but how do you find good ammo if you haven't tuned the rifle yet. find the most consistent lot that will shoot without the tuner.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Well, I don't think it's a poor rifle, or poor ammo....maybe a poor shooter.

Lee, thanks for the target,

Gerry

View attachment 1272734

You're welcome Gerry. I forgot to ask about the rifle, I don't believe you disclosed the rifle's build specs. especially the barrel. length and diameter

Lee

 

[linekin]

Keith,

I think you meant vertical. That could very well be sweat, gnats, and tired eyes. I'm going to re-shoot that series. I'm already broke, and I don't see any Lapua ammunition on the horizon.

Gerry

Gerry, no I did mean the horizontal stringing shown in the photos. Not knowing what conditions were or if you were using flags I can only assume that conditions were ideal & flags were used. Otherwise, tuning would be futile at best.
The horizontal I'm referring too are on bulls 4.5.8.10,18,19,20,23, & 24. Most concerning are 18 & 23 as they are within a click or 2 of what appears the best settings 249/250.
That is too small a window imo & would be searching for the best setting with a wider window.
I have seen tuners induce horizontal regardless whether they're supposed to or not.
I have no idea why I've seen this, & looks like you are, but can only suspect a few of things that may cause it. Speaking here of the tuner alone.
There are plenty of rifle issues that could cause horizontal issues obviously, but as John mentioned trying to tune with a rifle not ready for a tuner is a crapshoot at best.
Ignition, bedding, scope repeatability & of course a decent barrel being the mainstays. Without them its anyone's guess. Only you know the confidence you have in them in order to properly tune the gun.

Keith

 

[shortine]

You're welcome Gerry. I forgot to ask about the rifle, I don't believe you disclosed the rifle's build specs. especially the barrel. length and diameter

Lee

Lee, It's a Walther KK500, 100% as it came from the factory. I bought the barreled action and stock separately, but they are both stock from Walther.

Gerry

 

[shortine]

Gerry, no I did mean the horizontal stringing shown in the photos. Not knowing what conditions were or if you were using flags I can only assume that conditions were ideal & flags were used. Otherwise, tuning would be futile at best.
The horizontal I'm referring too are on bulls 4.5.8.10,18,19,20,23, & 24. Most concerning are 18 & 23 as they are within a click or 2 of what appears the best settings 249/250.
That is too small a window imo & would be searching for the best setting with a wider window.
I have seen tuners induce horizontal regardless whether they're supposed to or not.
I have no idea why I've seen this, & looks like you are, but can only suspect a few of things that may cause it. Speaking here of the tuner alone.
There are plenty of rifle issues that could cause horizontal issues obviously, but as John mentioned trying to tune with a rifle not ready for a tuner is a crapshoot at best.
Ignition, bedding, scope repeatability & of course a decent barrel being the mainstays. Without them its anyone's guess. Only you know the confidence you have in them in order to properly tune the gun.

Keith

I appreciate your input. I shot that target turned on it's side, and could not get it oriented correctly in the post. Turn it to the left one time. The second target is also turned on it's side. Horizontal dispersion on 18 and 23 are .08 and .04 respectively.

Gerry

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lee, It's a Walther KK500, 100% as it came from the factory. I bought the barreled action and stock separately, but they are both stock from Walther.

Gerry

View attachment 1272889

Gerry,
Nice looking rifle, what tuner is that? looking at the configuration of the rifle you will only be able to get so far with the tuning meaning you won't be able to wring out all of the potential. just the fact that it is not setup for true BR shooting will limit how the rifle will shoot. not to say it won't shoot good, but IMO not to the potential you may see if configured for BR
looking at the tuner target, I think 253 looks good, I am going to assume what looks like a 1-bullet diameter of horizontal was shooter induced. seeing that you shot that setting 3 times, I believe you have the same conclusion. overall pretty decent, with a rifle setup for 3-P shooting

Lee

 

[grauhanen]

Lee, It's a Walther KK500, 100% as it came from the factory. I bought the barreled action and stock separately, but they are both stock from Walther.

Gerry

View attachment 1272889

This is only the second image I've seen of the Walther BR-style stock. It appears to have a 3" wide forestock. Is the butt stock inline with the bore (that is, it has no cast)? It certainly appears to be designed for BR free recoil shooting. What a great looking rig.

 

[shortine]

Lee, tuner is DiOrio BR. yes 253 is what I've settled on so far, But I'm going to go back and shoot some more with the naked barrel; and also try a different scope. This rifle is shooting better than my last pure custom (10X, Shilen,Gorham) and I've had to completely change the way I shoot. it takes some getting used to. When I get comfortable, I'll post a 25 shot group or an ARA target.

Grauhanan, Thanks, yes 3", and no cast, inline, bottom of buttstock parallel with bottom of forend. I cussed their designers because there's no way a human hand can hold that stock, and finally figured out that's the way it was meant to be. Maybe that's how they do it in Europe. I stole my wife's buckybean neck pillow to rest my hand close to the trigger, and now the only thing that I touch on the entire mechanism is the joystick and trigger. With the trigger set close to 15 grams, that open trigger guard takes some getting used to. I've bumped it five times (see "my bad" on targets) with less than a brick used.

Gerry

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

This is only the second image I've seen of the Walther BR-style stock. It appears to have a 3" wide forestock. Is the butt stock inline with the bore (that is, it has no cast)? It certainly appears to be designed for BR free recoil shooting. What a great looking rig.

Good eye, I didn't notice the wider forearm. what threw me off was the comb area with the cut-outs

 

[linekin]

Gerry, I must be looking at a different picture then you or Lee. I can not see where either of you find 253 to be the best setting. School me here, what am I missing? If I turn it to the left it looks like a ton of vertical.
Rotating the target doesn't change my mind that 249 & 250 look to me like the best setting. Again, what am I missing?

Keith

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Gerry, I must be looking at a different picture then you or Lee. I can not see where either of you find 253 to be the best setting. School me here, what am I missing? If I turn it to the left it looks like a ton of vertical.
Rotating the target doesn't change my mind that 249 & 250 look to me like the best setting. Again, what am I missing?

Keith

Keith, Here is how the target was shot, clearly 250 shows a lot of vertical. with the exception of about a bullet's width 2 of the 3 groups at 253 look better. 249 shows what looks to be forced deformation with a shot high left.

Lee

 

[linekin]

Keith, Here is how the target was shot, clearly 250 shows a lot of vertical. with the exception of about a bullet's width 2 of the 3 groups at 253 look better. 249 shows what looks to be forced deformation with a shot high left.

Lee

Ahh, I see now! I was looking at the IR50 target only. Agreed 253 looks the best on this one. However, on the IR target the results are flip-flopped.
Concerning to say the least...

Keith