Tungsten: The perfect metal for bullets

[Grimstod]

I was surprised at this article. Usually BBC is full of antigun crap. This one had some interesting revelations that were new to me. To bad pavilions can't really use it because its the ultimate armor perching bullet.


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28263683

 

[jfseaman]

Yes, well there is the armor piercing issue but..

As an inclusion in an alloy or sintering its great. Wrapped in a standard soft copper jacket a sintered core is great for varmint/target and a lead free controlled expansion core would be a viable option to solid copper.

However...

It's expensive.

 

[watercam]

Doesn't Barnes use a tungsten core in the LRX line of bullets?

 

[Grimstod]

Yes they do and but I can't remember how they get it around the laws. I kow a lot of surplus 50bmg is tungsten core. There are a lot of technical work arounds to the law I am sure.

 

[Webster]

Pure tungsten is not hard. I used to work with it every day. Armor piercing bullets are traditionally made from a tool steel containing tungsten with a brass jacket. . Amour piercing bullets are very hard on rifle bores. It is not the ultimate armor piercing material. In Desert Storm they used depleted uranium in Abram tank rounds and the 20 or 25mm cannons on armored vehicles.
What’s this got to do with varmint and target shooting???

 

[Steve Blair]

Pure tungsten is not hard. I used to work with it every day. Armor piercing bullets are traditionally made from a tool steel containing tungsten with a brass jacket. . Amour piercing bullets are very hard on rifle bores. It is not the ultimate armor piercing material. In Desert Storm they used depleted uranium in Abram tank rounds and the 20 or 25mm cannons on armored vehicles.
What’s this got to do with varmint and target shooting???

[br]
Are we limited to discussing only varmint and target shooting? Why? [br]
The reason DU is used, as the article explains, owes to the pyrophoric effect at high temperature which tungsten does not exhibit. Other countries, like UK, still use tungsten penetrators to excellent effect.

 

[butchlambert]

Pure tungsten is not hard. I used to work with it every day. Armor piercing bullets are traditionally made from a tool steel containing tungsten with a brass jacket. . Amour piercing bullets are very hard on rifle bores. It is not the ultimate armor piercing material. In Desert Storm they used depleted uranium in Abram tank rounds and the 20 or 25mm cannons on armored vehicles.
What’s this got to do with varmint and target shooting???

I don't agree with you. I have a lot of 30 cal. armor piercing bullets and tracers. The copper jackets on these bullets do not hurt a rifle bore. They are not accurate, but do what they are designed for. Nobody can machine a solid bullet out of any material that is both as accurate as a lead core custom bullet at a competitive price.
Remember, we have a few competition shooters that can afford what ever they cost if they work. Nobody is shooting them. Solid copper and brass bullets are longer than lead core bullets. You would need to buy barrels with a faster twist ,and a tungsten bullet will damage your barrel.

 

[Catfur]

Pure tungsten is not hard. I used to work with it every day. Armor piercing bullets are traditionally made from a tool steel containing tungsten with a brass jacket. . Amour piercing bullets are very hard on rifle bores. It is not the ultimate armor piercing material. In Desert Storm they used depleted uranium in Abram tank rounds and the 20 or 25mm cannons on armored vehicles.
What’s this got to do with varmint and target shooting???

[br]
Are we limited to discussing only varmint and target shooting? Why? [br]
The reason DU is used, as the article explains, owes to the pyrophoric effect at high temperature which tungsten does not exhibit. Other countries, like UK, still use tungsten penetrators to excellent effect.

There's more to that for DU too. The government owns hundreds and hundreds of kilotonnes of the stuff (unlike, say, expensive tungsten), and doesn't have a whole lot of other uses for it.

 

[people]

Pure tungsten is not hard. I used to work with it every day. Armor piercing bullets are traditionally made from a tool steel containing tungsten with a brass jacket. . Amour piercing bullets are very hard on rifle bores. It is not the ultimate armor piercing material. In Desert Storm they used depleted uranium in Abram tank rounds and the 20 or 25mm cannons on armored vehicles.
What’s this got to do with varmint and target shooting???

[br]
Are we limited to discussing only varmint and target shooting? Why? [br]
The reason DU is used, as the article explains, owes to the pyrophoric effect at high temperature which tungsten does not exhibit. Other countries, like UK, still use tungsten penetrators to excellent effect.

There's more to that for DU too. The government owns hundreds and hundreds of kilotonnes of the stuff (unlike, say, expensive tungsten), and doesn't have a whole lot of other uses for it.

Not many other uses but it really punches nice holes in steel.

 

[Steve Blair]

Not many other uses but it really punches nice holes in steel.

[br]
According to UK MOD and Bundeswehr, tungsten has slightly better penetrative performance. The difference is that DU burns ferociously at high temperature and ignites everything within the tank. Catfur makes a reasonable point regarding material availability but, if US military planners saw an advantage to using tungsten, they would not hesitate to pay the price.

 

[Catfur]

Not many other uses but it really punches nice holes in steel.

[br]
According to UK MOD and Bundeswehr, tungsten has slightly better penetrative performance. The difference is that DU burns ferociously at high temperature and ignites everything within the tank. Catfur makes a reasonable point regarding material availability but, if US military planners saw an advantage to using tungsten, they would not hesitate to pay the price.

Um, remember you are talking about the people who cancelled the existing, proven, highly performing F-22 in favor of the vaporware F-35 (which even on paper doesn't outperform the F-22). I'd give more examples, but I haven't got all lifetime. Bureaucrats do things for their own, strange reasons, and I ought to know, cause I am one.

 

[Steve Blair]

Um, remember you are talking about the people who cancelled the existing, proven, highly performing F-22 in favor of the vaporware F-35 (which even on paper doesn't outperform the F-22). I'd give more examples, but I haven't got all lifetime. Bureaucrats do things for their own, strange reasons, and I ought to know, cause I am one.

[br]
Point taken, but I think the US got this one right. While it is true that DU leaves some nasty oxides after burning, the best tungsten alloys are highly carcinogenic, much more than DU. So, choose your poison. When it comes to lethality and giving our troops the best fighting chance; do whatever it takes.

 

[Grimstod]

Um, remember you are talking about the people who cancelled the existing, proven, highly performing F-22 in favor of the vaporware F-35 (which even on paper doesn't outperform the F-22). I'd give more examples, but I haven't got all lifetime. Bureaucrats do things for their own, strange reasons, and I ought to know, cause I am one.

[br]
Point taken, but I think the US got this one right. While it is true that DU leaves some nasty oxides after burning, the best tungsten alloys are highly carcinogenic, much more than DU. So, choose your poison. When it comes to lethality and giving our troops the best fighting chance; do whatever it takes.

1+ for our troops.

 

[Syncrowave]

Pure tungsten is not hard.

You could have fooled me. I use the stubs of old tungsten electrodes (used for TIG welding) as scribe points, and they'll scribe hardened steel no problem.

 

[Medic505]

But the stubs you use are probably 2 to 4% Thorium, which makes a big difference hardness wise. Pure tungsten electrodes are a very poor choice for tig welding.

 

[Syncrowave]

No thorium here (I use 2% lanthanated) but point taken. Don't know if I have any green tungstens...

 

[XTR]

Most folks should not get into the DU penetrator discussion. There is more than enough misinformation out there to go around, we don't need to propagate more here. Suffice to say DU goes though steel like butter with more than just kinetic energy on it's side, and W is a pure kinetic penetrator, and you really don't want to be there when either of them gets there anyway. What it does, and how it does it is pretty readily available if you do a little research.

As for W in rifle bullets. As stated above, I've seen it clad in 50cal bullets, and I've seen the steel core green tip 5.56s that are out there. By all accts both are good for military purposes but neither is a precision rifle round. I think that you just can't get the core perfectly centered in the bullet every time to make them all fly to the same spot.

There was a guy shooting lathe turned bullets in F-Class at Camp Perry this yr, I got the impression that it wasn't going as well as he had hoped.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I thought the reason for using W or U instead of Pb was for the higher density of these materials and thus the increase in SD and BC for the same size bullet or projectile.

W is 19.25, U is 19.05 and Pb is only 11.34, while Cu is 8.32; You get almost twice the weight for the same volume, and the higher SD gives better penetration and you get a better BC along with it, what's not to like?

As stated earlier the US government has loads of readily available depleted Uranium and its ability to start fires is just an added bonus.

 

[jlow]

+1

 

[Syncrowave]

Pure tungsten is not hard.

According to Wikipedia, it's 7.5 on the Mohs scale, which is harder than quartz, and quartz is harder than glass. Sounds pretty hard to me!