Hypotheses (idea or theory not proven), beliefs, opinions, estimations, or explanations and everyone has them. Some win with em......across multiple disciplines more win without em!
Tuners
- Thread starter Bottom Fodder
- Start date
That depends on where, what and with whom you shoot. The ranges where I shoot, there are far more guns with than without. I've never, ever said that anyone MUST have a tuner to win. I have said, about 10 or so years ago now that, I felt then that the time was coming where you'll either use a tuner or get beat by someone that is. Maybe not so much where you compete, but it's way closer to being a true statement now, than ever...and growing.
I totally understand your perspective. In spite of your position, I still send them to you because the experience of some of your own customers is positive enough that they still ask for you to install them. Some...are very accomplished shooters, too. One shipped to you yesterday, in fact.
Not arguing either way but their results are pretty impressive with them. I am very firm in believing they work and that I don't know anyone that has the testing background with them that I do. I'm certainly happy to discuss the methodology with you anytime, as there seems to be little doubt that tuners work, but the methodology is where there seems to be the biggest differences. Since I'm not sure how you've tested to come to your conclusions about never moving them, I can only say that their biggest benefit comes once you have the methodology down, well. If one moves a tuner by any random amount, the result will be random as well. So yes, I agree to an extent, that not moving it is better than guessing. All day and twice on Sundays, unless you're just very lucky...which happens.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
20 years ago I was told shoot a tuner or get beat by one. 20 years later, still havent seen that.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I can fully disagree with someone but also be civil and ok with thier choices. I put a lot of tuners on every week. And theres some tuner proponents at deep creek. However my opinion is very anti tuner. For a good reason. And I feel like Im allowed to have an opinion at this point.
I shoot with some of the best in the world whose names they would not want mentioned. 100/200 BR, Tack Driver, Long range bench and f-class, and several ELR guys. The few who have them do not touch them. It is literally an ornament on the end of the barrel, be it right or wrong. I realize you have a product to sell and thats ok. I rest my case.
Hmmm. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, but just to offer help. I thought and meant to be polite and yet make that clear enough. Of course, you're allowed to think whatever ya want to. Methodology is possibly what could change your perspective. Or...maybe not.
No, see...that's precisely where you have me wrong. I'm promoting a method of using a tuner without guessing. That methodology may well sell tuners because it works but if someone blatantly promotes their own product, Paul will ban them. Yes, I'm very, very open about promoting tuners because I've seen a whole lot of reason to believe, deeply, that they are the way of the future and are a simply amazing tool. I do not promote my own but all, if used properly to gain full benefit from them. I really think that if you had seen what I have, you'd be just as excited about tuners as I am.
If dead weight were all a tuner is, ask the bbl maker for a contour that gives you as precisely as you can calculate, the weight you/they want to be at the muzzle end of the bbl and save some money. Don't buy a tuner, period.
But ohh, ya want to be able to move it? Ahhh! Please, please, PLEASE...explain to me with any scientific basis, a setting on a moveable tuner that shoots everything to its potential..or whatever it is that your post implies. I'm honestly eager to learn of this. You are not the first person I've asked to provide this. It has never happened yet. If a single setting works, there'd be no need to do load development. Just go shoot anything.
This is not personal and I'm sorry if you think differently. Scrolling on by is always an option, too.
Your pretty good with the scroll on by deal! You might take some of your own advice! I will now scroll on by. Nothing to really gain after 17 pages!
Sorry to hear that. I'm still batting 1000 on my request. I'm sorry, but what's your name, so I'll know. Do you shoot at deep creek too? Just a lot of "disagreement" coming from one range. Hmmm. Thanks
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Do not shoot at Deep Creek! Lots of respect for those folks! As far as I'm concerned, they rule 1,000 yard BR. Ricky Dyer from West Texas, 74 years of age! Been shooting for 60 years. Won my share of local 500-1,000 yard matches in Texas and NM. Won't see me in any record books! You are taking the negative responses way too serious. By the way, I don't think Deep Creek folks are in disagreement! From what I've seen, they are simply making the point that maybe tuners are not for everyone. I don't want any hard feelings from anyone! I'll stand down! Sometimes I don't take my own advice! I said years ago that I would not get caught up in these tuner conversations. I 'll go back and take my own advice.
Shooter13
Gold $$ Contributor
Mike like many of us is "old fashion" but the best part he wants to answer your question you didn't know you had.Maybe an add to cart option would save time.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I personally think that Tuners are not much aid in many aspects of shooting.
However, if you read some of my post, you will know that I do not use a tuner the way many do. I have a lot of experience with tuners in Short Range Scoreand Group Shooting.
Here is an example how I make use of the tuner on my 30BR ScoreRifle. Scroll to post #15.
Jackie Schmidt Wins 200 Yard VFS At Tomball
We had an absolutely beautiful day in Tomball to shoot our first 200 yard Varmint for Score Match of the season. We had really light conditions for Match One and Two, but from Three through Five it turned into Tomball, with twitchy winds and lots of mirage. We had a turnout of 21 shooters...
forum.accurateshooter.com
I will be the first to admit that this might have very little to do with 1000 yard, F Class, or Precision Rifle.
But it works for me. In Competition. On the Clock.
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jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I’ve already shot three Matches this year.. those symptoms ended when I heard “insert bolts, commence fire” the first week end in February.You guys are obviously suffering from severe cabin fever. Glad winter is almost over. Put on a coat and go outside and shoot until all symptoms relent!
Thanks Jackie, you probably remember giving me some help and advice on 80 Dominators a couple of years ago. I was very greatful for that! That 12 twist BR shot fantastic after conversing with you. Much appreciated!
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
Mike and Jim need to spend some therapeutic time with you Jackie.I’ve already shot three Matches this year.. those symptoms ended when I heard “insert bolts, commence fire” the first week end in February.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
90% of the time, People like to argue against Experience ....based on their feelings
Problem with that is "feelings Lie" (same as being blinded by love, / emotions)
The intelligent know, for a fact
You cannot make emotional based decisions in battle , in chess, or in investing.
Just because a person has a really good "Feeling" about a stock for example.....
Don't mean chit, and they will most often loose their money.
Once emotions come into the equation, such as in battle, pissing a person off
all calm logic and reasoning go out the window,
all hope is lost for that person being enlightened or taught.
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Many people use "Gap Theory" to fill in the blanks of what they don't know and how they FEEL,
something SHOULD work, then fill in the gaps with something that
"Makes sense to them" with no real facts or experience to back up their stance or assertion.
They will ignore facts, math, logic and experience.
Then keep asking others until they find an "OPINION" that agrees with their FEELINGS
then come back and argue with you
instead of just listening and doing as instructed by someone who has actual experience in the subject
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My experience is this:
You could be Christopher Columbus and have charted the Best Route to the Americas
Then a person asks you "Whats the best way to the new americas?"
And you tell them....
And people will turn around start off a complete different direction and say
"Ya know what, I think I'm gonna go this way instead, but thanks for the advice"
When I learn or research something for myself, I think it's best to go to others who have already layed the groundwork and accept their knowledge and experience. Before I veer off on my own.
(Yet other People think they are going to reinvent the wheel, instead of just accepting others have already done the research and have all the experience possible in "The Wheel"
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Within Psychology there is a phenomenon called the "Dunning Kruger effect"
Which explains much of how people think in this generation.
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People need to learn how to throw all emotion out the window when making educated decisions.
When asking for multiple "Opinions" gauge how many people assert their stance based on emotion.
like picking a favorite caliber, usually is bases on sentimetal reasons/ brings back memorites etc.
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Or if you try to Help a person do something more accurate, efficiently or quicker
They will retort with "This is just the way I've always done it!!!"
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When we are open minded and willing to hear other people’s opinion or experiences is when we learn.
That was my point.
BTW Christopher Columbus overshot America and landed in the Bahamas.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
I hear ya, although I base most everything on Math, including human communication
Feelings don't play much into how or why a thing works
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And Chris likely learned from his mistake and corrected it and still has more experience than one who has not ever left home right? / but maybe that was not the best example, seem to recall Vespucci actually deserves the credit for that
But like I said, I'm math based.
Never did well in History
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As far as Tuners go, I'm willing to bet some of the manufacturers had a few trial and error processes too before arriving at a more concrete conlusion or design as well.
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Not exactly, he undershot the East Indies and ended up in the Bahamas. There he discovered the first coconut husk tuner found to be effective on the Blunderbuss.
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