Tuners

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I believe in the most simple way it can be broken down is that load development is done with powder tests and seating depth tests to achieve your best possible load. Tuners are used to keep that best possible load in tune throughout a wide spread of different forever changing weather conditions without having to revisit the loading bench for further load development once the weather goes from 40° to 90°.

Yes..thank you

 

[Rob01]

Tuners work very good with factory ammo which you have no control on the load itself.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Tuners work very good with factory ammo which you have no control on the load itself.

Yes, rimfire is a good example of that. But if a tuner were magic, all lots of ammo would be equal and shoot great. They are not, though. They can tune the rifle to shoot different lots to their potential, but like cf, all loads are not equal. Essentially GIGO. If the ammo is great it can be tuned to shoot great. If it's garbage, it can't. IME, most lots of premium ammo can be tuned to a reasonably competitive level but some lots will still perform better than others, in a given rifle.

 

[Rob01]

Yes, rimfire is a good example of that. But if a tuner were magic, all lots of ammo would be equal and shoot great. They are not, though. They can tune the rifle to shoot different lots to their potential, but like cf, all loads are not equal. Essentially GIGO. If the ammo is great it can be tuned to shoot great. If it's garbage, it can't. IME, most lots of premium ammo can be tuned to a reasonably competitive level but some lots will still perform better than others, in a given rifle.

I was talking about factory centerfire ammo. No one said they are magic so don’t try and imply that to what I said.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I was talking about factory centerfire ammo. No one said they are magic so don’t try and imply that to what I said.

Wow! Didn't mean to imply you did. Surprising response.
Yes, same effect with cf factory ammo. Even said so above, in a previous post. Since this is in the competition forum, I assumed that factory cf ammo is rarely if ever used. Post some pics of your groups.

 

[Rob01]

Wow! Didn't mean to imply you did. Surprising response.
Yes, same effect with cf factory ammo. Even said so above, in a previous post. Since this is in the competition forum, I assumed that factory cf ammo is rarely if ever used. Post some pics of your groups.

Sorry not trying to be rude and I can see how it might have been read that way.

I use factory ammo from time to time in PRS matches as it works great for those and the tuner helps. Not benchrest so not worrying about down to the .001” difference. I started using the ATS tuner about 4 years ago as it is easy to screw on the threads under the brake and it works. Below is my lot of 140 ELDs I tuned after getting it. That’s 5 shots using a 6th bullet hole as the aiming point. Before tuning that was about a 1/2 moa load and during tuning I could watch the shots come together which each adjustment on the tuner. Was pretty cool not having used a tuner before. That was done at about sea level and around 60degrees or so and I took it to a match at about 3500 feet asl and temps in the 40-50s and the day prior they had an open range day. The spotter who was watching my shots on steel at 930 yards said my 5 shots were almost touching so I was pretty happy with that performance.

Since then have used it with other factory ammo with similar results but as mentioned it won’t turn bad ammo great. I had a lot that was more towards the MOA range but tuning got it near 1/2 moa so made it usable for PRS matches.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Sorry not trying to be rude and I can see how it might have been read that way.

I use factory ammo from time to time in PRS matches as it works great for those and the tuner helps. Not benchrest so not worrying about down to the .001” difference. I started using the ATS tuner about 4 years ago as it is easy to screw on the threads under the brake and it works. Below is my lot of 140 ELDs I tuned after getting it. That’s 5 shots using a 6th bullet hole as the aiming point. Before tuning that was about a 1/2 moa load and during tuning I could watch the shots come together which each adjustment on the tuner. Was pretty cool not having used a tuner before. That was done at about sea level and around 60degrees or so and I took it to a match at about 3500 feet asl and temps in the 40-50s and the day prior they had an open range day. The spotter who was watching my shots on steel at 930 yards said my 5 shots were almost touching so I was pretty happy with that performance.

Since then have used it with other factory ammo with similar results but as mentioned it won’t turn bad ammo great. I had a lot that was more towards the MOA range but tuning got it near 1/2 moa so made it usable for PRS matches.

View attachment 1633024

Is that factory ammo? Great group either way. I've tested factory ammo using several lots of various brands and loads in a rifle I set up just for the purpose of tuning factory ammo. I chambered up a 223 premium bbl because the vast availability of 223 ammo to test.

As you'd expect, some was just not ever gonna be competitive but there were a couple that were what appeared to be honest .25 moa loads after tuning the rifle to them. I started that testing prior to covid. Ammo availability of everything went to crap during covid so I stopped but hope to revisit that testing soon. I was pretty impressed at how well those couple of loads shot. Very impressed, really.
But to the point, all of the tested ammo responded to tuning but some was fantastic while most was never gonna come close to being competitive.

I'll add that both lots that shot so well did so at different tuner settings from one another...fwiw

 

[quest450]

Rob, this is great, I could see you show up at a SRBR match with your PRS rifle and put a lot of hurt on them SRBR guys shooting of a bipod and squeeze bag

 

[Rob01]

Is that factory ammo? Great group either way. I've tested factory ammo using several lots of various brands and loads in a rifle I set up just for the purpose of tuning factory ammo. I chambered up a 223 premium bbl because the vast availability of 223 ammo to test.

As you'd expect, some was just not ever gonna be competitive but there were a couple that were what appeared to be honest .25 moa loads after tuning the rifle to them. I started that testing prior to covid. Ammo availability of everything went to crap during covid so I stopped but hope to revisit that testing soon. I was pretty impressed at how well those couple of loads shot. Very impressed, really.
But to the point, all of the tested ammo responded to tuning but some was fantastic while most was never gonna come close to being competitive.

I'll add that both lots that shot so well did so at different tuner settings from one another...fwiw

Yup factory 6.5 Creedmoor 140 ELDs. And yup they are at different tuner setting between this lot and the other I mentioned also so I agree one tune doesn’t work for all. I will say that lot that shot great I never changed the tune and it continued like that for those cases of ammo.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yup factory 6.5 Creedmoor 140 ELDs. And yup they are at different tuner setting between this lot and the other I mentioned also so I agree one tune doesn’t work for all. I will say that lot that shot great I never changed the tune and it continued like that for those cases of ammo.

Sweet!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I believe in the most simple way it can be broken down is that load development is done with powder tests and seating depth tests to achieve your best possible load. Tuners are used to keep that best possible load in tune throughout a wide spread of different forever changing weather conditions without having to revisit the loading bench for further load development once the weather goes from 40° to 90°.

Yes, thats certainly one way to look at it. The best short range group shooters I know are adamant about never touching the tuner. They dont use it as a tuner, just a fixed mass.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yes, thats certainly one way to look at it. The best short range group shooters I know are adamant about never touching the tuner. They dont use it as a tuner, just a fixed mass.

That all started when Gene Bukys was alive and used tuners as a weight only, close to 20 years ago....around 2007. He and I discussed it more than once and we could never agree but keep in mind, his thought was that it widened his tune window and he was a HOF shooter who was also one of the best ever at tuning for conditions with powder charge. It's certainly one way of doing things but there is no scientific basis that I'm aware of that supports it. Yes, it very slightly widens the window but there are other ways of doing that without needing to change loads to keep up with tune changes. A tuner can do both, if one learns to work it properly, ime.

I think we'll agree that most of a wide tune window is more related to the load and the bbl than the tuner, though.

 

[Tim Singleton]

There is a misunderstanding out there that SR group guys laod at the range Just for powder changes thru the day
A lot of times seating depth must be fine tuned as well.
I would say 90% of SR group guys have tuners on their rifles But everyone is still loading thru the day
Just adjusting the tuner is not enough to win a Group match

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

There is a misunderstanding out there that SR group guys laod at the range Just for powder changes thru the day
A lot of times seating depth must be fine tuned as well.
I would say 90% of SR group guys have tuners on their rifles But everyone is still loading thru the day
Just adjusting the tuner is not enough to win a Group match

Hi Tim! Yes, tuning with seating depth is sometimes just as critical as powder. I have been speaking generally in regard to tuning with a tuner vs changing something about the load. IME, I can't agree with the last statement but to each their own.

 

[Tim Singleton]

The misconception is that the group guys are not turning the tuner during the day that they are only changing powder.

Hey. No argument from me that they work. They certainly do !!

 

[TRSR8]

Yes, thats certainly one way to look at it. The best short range group shooters I know are adamant about never touching the tuner. They dont use it as a tuner, just a fixed mass.

Yep, for sure.
I suspect we know plenty of the same guys and I have talked to more than a few including Team USA, great shooters, almost to a man they seem to tune the barrel, never touch it again and load adjust from there, pretty consistent results.
I try and study practices, been using tuners in RFBR from the start but admittedly haven’t gone down the CF road although probably should

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The misconception is that the group guys are not turning the tuner during the day that they are only changing powder.

Hey. No argument from me that they work. They certainly do !!

Just my 2 cents but changing two things at once is the worst possible way to do things

 

[Tim Singleton]

Just my 2 cents but changing two things at once is the worst possible way to do things

There are times a slight tuner adjustment is enough
There are times it isnt and then a powder change is needed
So its not that anyone is doing two things at once. Im pretty sure the kind of groups that are being shot today would testify to the fact they may know something of what to do

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Yep, for sure.
I suspect we know plenty of the same guys and I have talked to more than a few including Team USA, great shooters, almost to a man they seem to tune the barrel, never touch it again and load adjust from there, pretty consistent results.
I try and study practices, been using tuners in RFBR from the start but admittedly haven’t gone down the CF road although probably should

Thats right. I find it very hard to argue with their success. It certainly has a poi stabilizing effect. I think thats where the notion of the wider tune comes in. I dont look at the tune as being wider as the nodes are still the same distance apart, but rather as they go out of tune they are not as bad because of the mass. Long range testing has shown me that the poi stabilizing is less desirable for us than it is at sr. So you dont see a lot on the line at a lr br match. But they are popular in F class with the guys that travel and preload.

 

[Greg@wfcustom]

View attachment 1632260

Now that's a Mike (pun intended) drop!

Personally I wouldn't leave home without one.
G