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Tuners

Alex Wheeler said:
The main reason Im not a tuner fan. Very hard for guys to not tuner tune a barrel. A real tune doesnt go out of tune all that much. Tuner tunes do. Also just my experiance dealing with a lot of customers. I really like to see guys learn to tune first. Once your in the hunt then try a tuner. But I dont like to see new guys on them.
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Excellent point. Learning how to tune is fundamental, and needs to come first.
 
JEFFPPC said:
I pretty much agree with you except for one thing. You can make poor load look good at times with a tuner. Problem is when it goes away.....It goes away. Develope a good load without using the tuner and when it strays it can usually be corrected with 10 shots or less, in my experience
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ill agree with you, I do a complete load work up before I ever touch the tuner. The same methods I use to do before I had a tuner. I’ll get it the best that I can get it with seating depth and powder charge. I do seating depth at 100 yards they take my travel loading set up to the range and develop my load for 600, then at 1000. Afterwards, I’ll run my tuner test at 100 over flags. More often than not, I find myself at my original starting point with the tuner. It kinda tells me how well I can tune a barrel lol. My shotmarker and travel loading set up has saved me a bunch of time and wasted components!
 
Jvance513 said:
ill agree with you, I do a complete load work up before I ever touch the tuner. The same methods I use to do before I had a tuner. I’ll get it the best that I can get it with seating depth and powder charge. I do seating depth at 100 yards they take my travel loading set up to the range and develop my load for 600, then at 1000. Afterwards, I’ll run my tuner test at 100 over flags. More often than not, I find myself at my original starting point with the tuner. It kinda tells me how well I can tune a barrel lol. My shotmarker and travel loading set up has saved me a bunch of time and wasted components!
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I’ll bet that shotmarker really helps while adjusting the tuner.
 
richard said:
A lot of the problems come from turning it to much. Sometimes only .001 change is all that is needed. A .003 movement would be a big change for me..
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Would that be typical over the life of the barrel? Or another way to ask it, once you’ve found your load and tuner settings, does the tuner stay in that small window of adjustment from there on?
 
TC260 said:
Would that be typical over the life of the barrel? Or another way to ask it, once you’ve found your load and tuner settings, does the tuner stay in that small window of adjustment from there on?
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Typically once you have established what the tune window is for that particular bbl it will stay the same.
But saying that, the window might be in a different spot on any given day. Don't get fixated on having a certain number, the rifle is going to tell you what that number will be for that day.
 
richard said:
Typically once you have established what the tune window is for that particular bbl it will stay the same.
But saying that, the window might be in a different spot on any given day. Don't get fixated on having a certain number, the rifle is going to tell you what that number will be for that day.
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so are you saying the tune might be different on any given day and you have to mess around with the tuner to find "the optimal tune window" ?
that sounds like a pretty complicated task for an average shooter unless you're a rocket surgeon and a tuner whisperer.
 
On the subject of tuner setting over the life of a barrel, just like he rechecks for throat wear, my friend does a little testing before a match. If it shoots the same dot as when he worked up the load and adjusted the tuner, then he leaves it alone, but if he sees a little difference, using the same load he will play with the tuner a bit. We are lucky in that we get good conditions for checking loads and or tuning fairly often.
 
quest450 said:
so are you saying the tune might be different on any given day and you have to mess around with the tuner to find "the optimal tune window" ?
that sounds like a pretty complicated task for an average shooter unless you're a rocket surgeon and a tuner whisperer.
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In reality, it's just way easier than that because you'll never be more than a few marks, at most, from back in tune. And more feasibly, either in tune or within a mark or two over a wide change in conditions. Really no different than without a tuner...and having the tune go away by a small amount in terms of powder charge. Some days the gun hammers all day but there are days that either you change the load, change the tuner..or just be stuck fighting an out of tune rifle. How much you should change the powder charge or how far you move a tuner should never be guesswork. If I start to get some vertical, I'm not gonna add a lb of powder and I'm not gonna turn the tuner a full turn. Both are extreme examples but nobody adds a lb of powder to get rid of a bullet of vertical. Yet there are still people that grab a tuner and wrench it in huge amounts, such as a full turn.

I'll add this, relative to my experience with a ppc and n133 vs my tuner...for example. For years, when ya get that bullet worth of vertical at 100, lots of people would go up or down by about .3gr of n133 to get rid of it. That's very similar to 1 mark on my tuner. So it's not that hard and neither tuning method involves magic, but they do take some amount of time learning.

As Richard said, yes, the range between completely in tune to completely out of tune on my tuner is about 4-5 marks and that range very much appears to be a constant. So you're never more than 4-5 marks from shooting small again, at the most. Most likely, not more than a mark or two, given the load is the same and you're only adjusting for condition related changes to tune.

Perhaps you don't see tune changes in your discipline but I assure you it happens and is why most short range shooters either learn to load/tune at the range or learn to use a tuner. Since loading at the range isn't very practical in long range, a lot of people are using tuners. Maybe not so much where you are but I sure do send a lot of tuners to long range shooters that also win with them.
 
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quest450 said:
so are you saying the tune might be different on any given day and you have to mess around with the tuner to find "the optimal tune window" ?
that sounds like a pretty complicated task for an average shooter unless you're a rocket surgeon and a tuner whisperer.
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LOL, it's not that hard. When you go to the range to shoot, what do you call that? Trigger time, learning the flags,ect. Same way with the tuner, call it tuner time. When I am out shooting sometimes I'm out there for "trigger time" and other days I'm out there for "tuner time" It tends to blend together but it's two different mindsets. Practice is not always about shooting dots, save that for the match. Take the time and twist on the tuner, get familiar with what it is doing. Learn how the rifle reacts to different settings. What worked? What didn't? You can be a good shooter and a not so good tuner. It works the other way also. Combine a good shooter with a good tune and you will be taking home the wood.
Go out on completely different days and see how much difference there is in settings. Write yourself notes in your bbl log book. Most of the time it's very minimal. I'll repeat again, it's not that hard! You get out of it what you put into it (just like everything else in life)
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
As Richard said, yes, the range between completely in tune to completely out of tune on my tuner is about 4-5 marks and that range very much appears to be a constant. So you're never more than 4-5 marks from shooting small again, at the most. Most likely, not more than a mark or two, given the load is the same and you're only adjusting for condition related changes to tune.
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A "mark" correlates to a thousandth?
 
TC260 said:
A "mark" correlates to a thousandth?
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On my standard tuner, that is correct. Not all tuners have the same mark values, nor weight, location, thread pitch, etc. Which does make it confusing to explain when we have many members on here, using various makes of tuners. So, it's not as simple as saying "move all tuners 1 mark at a time, nor 5 marks at a time. The most consistent aspect between all makes that I've seen is that the adjustments should be small but you have to quantify just how small that means for individual makes. The most common mistake people make, by far..is moving way too far at a time. There is a process to it.
 
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I would agree in regard to fresh to tuning shooter as to leave Tuner out of the equation up front … though personally I’ve only used tuners on 3 occasions for barrels that were otherwise not competitive . First two barrels were completely un usable 3rd barrel was a 87 percenter wanted to group but would not Pryor to installing tuner and a bit of work to nail my zone for tuner then match to match is still done in my typical ladder format as if tuner is not on rifle… first barrel set a agg record as did the second barrel … 3rd barrel or problem child won rendezvous top 7 1st place and combined group 600 yard and 1000 yard 4 last season a single target Deep Creek range record light class 1.414” a 600 yard NBRSA 6 target group agg record NBRSA 600 1st place 6 target group agg 2 gun group agg at 600 NBRSA Nationals and some other high positions at same match … these examples are not to boast about the results as much as make not that 3 different settings over the years resulted in very sub par results that require the garbage for those barrels or a different approach…. The WART on the end made the difference on all three turds not only brought them to life but helped me tear down some fences…. Achieved some quality goals so to say they don’t work or can’t is just a lack of attempts I suppose but in my case once I documented the “tendency” of tuner in “cycle” I personally don’t touch it and nurture my tune as I traditionally do as a match go’s Deep . Definitely interesting edit this is not to convince anyone but just my personal findings .. I’ve shot handfuls of barrels of many types and calibers and cartridges and these are the only three that we’re headed for the trashcan .. as a result of those findings I do field tests on barrels that otherwise didn’t need one to see what I can see…

Shawn Williams
 
Northridge said:
I would agree in regard to fresh to tuning shooter as to leave Tuner out of the equation up front … though personally I’ve only used tuners on 3 occasions for barrels that were otherwise not competitive . First two barrels were completely un usable 3rd barrel was a 87 percenter wanted to group but would not Pryor to installing tuner and a bit of work to nail my zone for tuner then match to match is still done in my typical ladder format as if tuner is not on rifle… first barrel set a agg record as did the second barrel … 3rd barrel or problem child won rendezvous top 7 1st place and combined group 600 yard and 1000 yard 4 last season a single target Deep Creek range record light class 1.414” a 600 yard NBRSA 6 target group agg record NBRSA 600 1st place 6 target group agg 2 gun group agg at 600 NBRSA Nationals and some other high positions at same match … these examples are not to boast about the results as much as make not that 3 different settings over the years resulted in very sub par results that require the garbage for those barrels or a different approach…. The WART on the end made the difference on all three turds not only brought them to life but helped me tear down some fences…. Achieved some quality goals so to say they don’t work or can’t is just a lack of attempts I suppose but in my case once I documented the “tendency” of tuner in “cycle” I personally don’t touch it and nurture my tune as I traditionally do as a match go’s Deep . Definitely interesting edit this is not to convince anyone but just my personal findings .. I’ve shot handfuls of barrels of many types and calibers and cartridges and these are the only three that we’re headed for the trashcan .. as a result of those findings I do field tests on barrels that otherwise didn’t need one to see what I can see…

Shawn Williams
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That wart barrel shot pretty damn good when I was there !!
 
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