Tuners

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No phone calls yet, but we're narrowing it down
By "phase time" do you mean
The Phases of different harmonics? Such as tuning the higher harmonics in to the fundamental?
Which is what I see as the biggest hurdle to tuning... is the harmonics causing standing waves
Because when you say not tuning with Frequency but with phase time that could also mean phase time of the bullet exit to the Frequency, as opposed to phase timing of the harmonics.
I could see the tuner not doing much to the Fundamental Frequency, but possibly altering the harmonics since they are lower in amplitude, and possibly reducing their amplitude to the point a harmonic does not affect the fundamental frequency as much.

There is a standing wave but it's not what we see on target because we tend to think in terms of frequency and that change in wave form. https://people.eecs.ku.edu/~callen58/501/Phase_and_Frequency.pdf

It's ugly, with sharp, narrow peaks and valleys. That's why a "node"(incorrect terminology" does not get proportionally wider in area as frequency is lowered.

Imagine a single waveform and a tuner shifting the top of the sine wave left or right to coincide with exit timing. We we able to view that happening as well as altering that timing with small tuner adjustments that were also apparent on target.

 

[ELR LVR]

There is a standing wave but it's not what we see on target because we tend to think in terms of frequency and that change in wave form. https://people.eecs.ku.edu/~callen58/501/Phase_and_Frequency.pdf

Imagine a single waveform and a tuner shifting the top of the sine wave left or right to coincide with exit timing. We we able to view that happening as well as altering that timing with small tuner adjustments that were also apparent on target.

Awesome man, thanks so much for your time in explaining further.
Very cool stuff
One other thing, I always figured but never proved to myself
The end of a barrel usually does not vibrate in a perfect circle, but more in an oval correct?
Also, Did you ever witness the barrel suddenly or even slightly dampen by itself,
....then go back to vibrating at full amplitude again

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Awesome man, thanks so much for your time in explaining further.
Very cool stuff

I kept adding more but I gotta work. Lol!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Awesome man, thanks so much for your time in explaining further.
Very cool stuff
One other thing, I always figured but never proved to myself
The end of a barrel usually does not vibrate in a perfect circle, but more in an oval correct?
Also, Did you ever witness the barrel suddenly or even slightly dampen by itself,
....then go back to vibrating at full amplitude again

Everything I've seen does imply a vertical oval shape movement, yes. And yes, there are places that show more or less vertical displacement. I have always tried to tune to max height vertical displacement for srbr, but that same spot may not be best for long range or for places that "look like" wide spots on the tuning test target. I don't believe in wide tuner settings but I do believe there are settings that show tune or lack of, more clearly than others. A setting that shows only small changes in group shape and size can look like a wide spot but in reality, it shoots just good enough to lose because it doesn't show the state of tune as clearly as say, the next anti-node....telling me to adjust the tuner.

In short, I may well tune to a spot that very clearly tells me I'm out of tune as it progresses away from a sweet spot vs a spot that doesn't change a lot...hence not giving me good data to move the tuner by, in real world conditions.

 

[ELR LVR]

Everything I've seen does imply a vertical oval shape movement, yes. And yes, there are places that show more or less vertical displacement. I have always tried to tune to max height vertical displacement for srbr, but that same spot may not be best for long range or for places that "look like" wide spots on the tuning test target. I don't believe in wide tuner settings but I do believe there are settings that show tune or lack of, more clearly than others. A setting that shows only small changes in group shape and size can look like a wide spot but in reality, it shoots just good enough to lose because it doesn't show the state of tune as clearly as say, the next anti-node....telling me to adjust the tuner.

Super info!,
I also agree tuning bullet exit to the top of a barrels upswing is likely the most opportune time for bullet departure

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Super info!,
I also agree tuning bullet exit to the top of a barrels upswing is likely the most opportune time for bullet departure

Especially at long range but at sr, I don't care as much, as long as it shoots small, shows me tune and I can see my sighters. Some of that is exclusive to short range, clearly. Velocity spread and PC are much more critical as range increases. In which case, I much prefer to be at the top. As either/or increase...moreso.

In sr, I may even go with bottom if it shows me state of tune more clearly than top because reading tune is more imprtant than the little bit of velocity spread I may have, that will show up big at long range. I hope I said that right and where everyone knows what I'm trying to convey.

 

[Northridge]

Super info!,
I also agree tuning bullet exit to the top of a barrels upswing is likely the most opportune time for bullet departure

From the aspect of a sign wave the “top” or twelve o’clock being a very common practice or method that appears to be usable at distance and I would agree, but a few of my best seasons have actually been while utilizing the 6 o’clock of a sign wave at distance… I know this likely go’s against the “grain” but is definitely a thing…. Just thought I would put that out there.. while the counter weight is hanging off the muzzle… I will also add the counter weight hasn’t widened a “tune” window for me vs weight off … there are other things at play I have found .. keep discussing the Topic as it is interesting

Shawn Williams

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I agree, you can tune on the way to the top or out of the bottom.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

From the aspect of a sign wave the “top” or twelve o’clock being a very common practice or method that appears to be usable at distance and I would agree, but a few of my best seasons have actually been while utilizing the 6 o’clock of a sign wave at distance… I know this likely go’s against the “grain” but is definitely a thing…. Just thought I would put that out there..

Shawn Williams

I can't say 100% but I believe that's from two things...Extremely good ammo and because yes, I've seen guns shoot best at bottom. Can't quantify that either but I'm making mental notes. Maybe we'll test those things later. My personal opinion is that it'll shoot just as good at top and will be more forgiving to velocity variation because PC can only happen on the upswing. Just my 2 cents is all.

 

[ELR LVR]

From the aspect of a sign wave the “top” or twelve o’clock being a very common practice or method that appears to be usable at distance and I would agree, but a few of my best seasons have actually been while utilizing the 6 o’clock of a sign wave at distance… I know this likely go’s against the “grain” but is definitely a thing…. Just thought I would put that out there.. while the counter weight is hanging off the muzzle… I will also add the counter weight hasn’t widened a “tune” window for me vs weight off … there are other things at play I have found .. keep discussing the Topic as it is interesting

Shawn Williams

Yes, this is also good to know, much appreciate your insight as well. I suppose it doesn't matter as much as being top peak or bottom peak of the barrels travel so long as the bullet exits at the same time every shot
If we consider the barrel vibrating in an oval...
The bottom arc may be a wider more gentle arc than when at the top where the top could rise to its peak then move back downward more abruptly following a tighter arc.
And Vice versa

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I agree, you can tune on the way to the top or out of the bottom.

Agreed, especially for long range. Thanks! I didn't mean to step on your toes earlier. Hope we're good.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yes, this is also good to know, much appreciate your insight as well

The most complicated part is that there are multiple frequencies occurring at once. You have a natural frequency as well as induced and those frequencies associated with all that's happening when a 65000psi bomb goes off in a closed tube. The best I can do so far is to say that a tuner at the end of the beam can manipulate the average of all, that happens behind it.

Maybe I'm wrong about that but that's how it seems and I'm yet to see anything that proves otherwise. But I promise, I'd love to hear from you or anyone else that can help me learn more about this. Ultimately, it doesn't matter much but I still wanna know.

 

[ELR LVR]

The most complicated part is that there are multiple frequencies occurring at once. You have a natural frequency as well as induced and those frequencies associated with all that's happening when a 65000psi bomb goes off in a closed tube. The best I can do so far is to say that a tuner at the end of the beam can manipulate the average of all, that happens behind it.

Maybe I'm wrong about that but that's how it seems and I'm yet to see anything that proves otherwise. But I promise, I'd love to hear from you or anyone else that can help me learn more about this. Ultimately, it doesn't matter much but I still wanna know.

Oh wait, so a lot of my understanding of this frequency stuff also comes from having briefly studied
Microwave communications
In microwave there is a waveguide
At the end of a waveguide must be a dummy load or standing waves can go crazy and hurt stuff
Similarly, the tuner could be acting as a "dummy load" altering phase or absorbing some of those standing waves ........which are a result of the upper harmonics (the multiple frequencies)
I have calculated.... that based on the speed of sound in SS, the frequencies can travel back and forth like 5 times before the bullet exits.
Which gives lot of time for the multiple frequencies to do very unpredictable things
-----------
Another aspect that I postulate is that when 2 standing waves collide, what if they do so right at the point the powder front is burning behind the bullet....possibly also changing burn characteristics
Such as if you smack Nitroglycerin ??? hmmm? What is in some of our Powders?

 

[Longrange57]

Yes, thats certainly one way to look at it. The best short range group shooters I know are adamant about never touching the tuner. They dont use it as a tuner, just a fixed mass.

That! I know many who win big matches and I shoot with some on occasion....some only use a fixed weight that looks like a tuner. If it is a tuner it is never touched! Some have even taken them off when rebarreling. These are guys my age and have shot out many barrels over 50-60 years!

 

[Fast14riot]

This thread has been very interesting. My new F/open rifle i decided to go with a tuner, I've always shot without one. Been reading up a lot and there is some great info here.

 

[ELR LVR]

-----------
Another aspect that I postulate is that when 2 standing waves collide, what if they do so right at the point the powder front is burning behind the bullet....possibly also changing burn characteristics
Such as if you smack Nitroglycerin ??? hmmm? What is in some of our Powders?

While I realize this may "Sound" farfetched
There is a lot going on in the barrel we can't see or monitor
such as how fast or when pressure builds at certain points in the barrel
We can ony measure the max pressure
it would interesting and useful to gauge pressure at certain intervals down the barrel in time with the bullets travel down the barrel.
----------------------------
I do know I have felt some weird recoil characteristics or even a harsher BAM instead of a Boom when developing a load that was not near max charge but almost "Felt like" an overcharge.
And this phenomenon is what makes sense to me
Anybody ever hear about how Q balls use to be made out of nitrocellulose?
And on a rare occasion if smacked just right ...have exploded?

 

[ELR LVR]

This thread has been very interesting. My new F/open rifle i decided to go with a tuner, I've always shot without one. Been reading up a lot and there is some great info here.

Please post your results and findings.
I will be getting one soon to play with as well.

 

[ELR LVR]

Now my next question would be, considering different harmonics and speed of sound in different mterials
Should a tuner be light, (Made from Aluminum)
Or as heavy and dense as possible (Lead or Tungsten)
???
I'm thinking SG of at least 10.0 or more would be more beneficial
(show most difference in change with small incremental adjustments)
This sucks, now I'm gonna have to make one :/

 

[Fast14riot]

A lot of the guys who shoot suppressed report that it acts like a tuner, hanging 10oz out on the end of a barrel definitely affects harmonics.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Oh wait, so a lot of my understanding of this frequency stuff also comes from having briefly studied
Microwave communications
In microwave there is a waveguide
At the end of a waveguide must be a dummy load or standing waves can go crazy and hurt stuff
Similarly, the tuner could be acting as a "dummy load" altering phase or absorbing some of those standing waves ........which are a result of the upper harmonics (the multiple frequencies)
I have calculated.... that based on the speed of sound in SS, the frequencies can travel back and forth like 5 times before the bullet exits.
Which gives lot of time for the multiple frequencies to do very unpredictable things
-----------
Another aspect that I postulate is that when 2 standing waves collide, what if they do so right at the point the powder front is burning behind the bullet....possibly also changing burn characteristics
Such as if you smack Nitroglycerin ??? hmmm? What is in some of our Powders?

IDK, so I hope you'll test it yourself