Tuners

[BoydAllen]

On the subject of Ezell tuners, my friend has a long range rifle that he built in .260 AI, with a 30" 1.24" top grade barrel (Brux I think), that shot very well as built, but he is always looking for improvement so he fitted it for one of Mike's original tuners and it just hammers, all the time. He could not be happier. He also has one on a purpose built rimfire bench gun, Stiller 2500, laminated benchrest stock, two groove Benchmark, March 48X HM, Jewell trigger. He also has a Harrel tuner that works but he prefers Mikes because it is easier for him to tune with.

 

[quest450]

My friend……..do you have any of your own experience to share ?

 

[D Coots]

A friend who is a short range group competitor, and who does his own barrel work, and tests more than anyone that I know, has found that his tuners broaden his tuning node, significantly, which makes it easier to maintain tune. He adjusts his tuners to refine his tune after finding the best load that he can conventionally. In the short range group game, my inquiries have shown that virtually all of the top shooters that I have asked do not use their tuners to tune at matches. This upsets some folks when I mention it, but I am just reporting here. Generally they adjust tune by varying their powder charges, just like they did pre-tuner. If you choose to criticize this approach, I suggest that you compare your shooting with theirs.

^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Alex Wheeler]

LOL, it's not that hard. When you go to the range to shoot, what do you call that? Trigger time, learning the flags,ect. Same way with the tuner, call it tuner time. When I am out shooting sometimes I'm out there for "trigger time" and other days I'm out there for "tuner time" It tends to blend together but it's two different mindsets. Practice is not always about shooting dots, save that for the match. Take the time and twist on the tuner, get familiar with what it is doing. Learn how the rifle reacts to different settings. What worked? What didn't? You can be a good shooter and a not so good tuner. It works the other way also. Combine a good shooter with a good tune and you will be taking home the wood.
Go out on completely different days and see how much difference there is in settings. Write yourself notes in your bbl log book. Most of the time it's very minimal. I'll repeat again, it's not that hard! You get out of it what you put into it (just like everything else in life)

Are you really having to chase your tune that much? Your adjusting the tuner often?

 

[ELR LVR]

Is the tuner fad over don’t hear much talk about now comparing to a year ago

I believe a tuner is a device to take the place of precise load development
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But I do see guys who really know their stuff using them,
It may help to widen the tuning window perhaps? or accomplish the same thing as slightly tweaking your load for different conditions.
I prefer load development, but one day I may try a tuner just to see how much of an effect it has
I noticed Cortina has marketed one and he is a very accomplished LR shooter who knows how to conduct proper load development, so they must be useful.
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It's just....if a guy is able to tweak & tune his loads to shoot in the .1's or even in the .2's
I don't see how a tuner would help do anything more.

 

[richard]

Are you really having to chase your tune that much? Your adjusting the tuner often?

For the most part no, I'm not "chasing the tune" very much at all. Once I have found the tune I want on the first target I might change .005 during the day at the most. I have shot matches (very few) where I never changed the tuner the whole day. It depends on the weather. I have had extreme weather changes where I might have to adjust .010, but that is very unusual.

 

[Eric Leonard]

I guess I’ve been lucky, last year I tuned a new Bartlien 13.5 twist 6 PPC with 68 BTs and LT32 and after I got it shooting how I liked it I never touched my seater die or changed the powder charge ,,and I don’t have a tuner on it , same exact load on ever target all year shot well enough to win the UBR Ky State match, 2nd place in UBR Tn State match and win the UBR Nationals against some heafty competition. I may be leaving points on the table not using a tuner idk, but since I started just shooting 1 rifle and quit messing with my load between matches my scores have gotten better the last couple years. It seems the least stuff I have to fool with the better I do. Lol

 

[Northridge]

I would agree in regard to fresh to tuning shooter as to leave Tuner out of the equation up front … though personally I’ve only used tuners on 3 occasions for barrels that were otherwise not competitive . First two barrels were completely un usable 3rd barrel was a 87 percenter wanted to group but would not Pryor to installing tuner and a bit of work to nail my zone for tuner then match to match is still done in my typical ladder format as if tuner is not on rifle… first barrel set a agg record as did the second barrel … 3rd barrel or problem child won rendezvous top 7 1st place and combined group 600 yard and 1000 yard 4 last season a single target Deep Creek range record light class 1.414” a 600 yard NBRSA 6 target group agg record NBRSA 600 1st place 6 target group agg 2 gun group agg at 600 NBRSA Nationals and some other high positions at same match … these examples are not to boast about the results as much as make note that 3 different settings over the years resulted in very sub par results that require the garbage for those barrels or a different approach…. The WART on the end made the difference on all three turds not only brought them to life but helped me tear down some fences…. Achieved some quality goals so to say they don’t work or can’t is just a lack of attempts I suppose but in my case once I documented the “tendency” of tuner in “cycle” I personally don’t touch it and nurture my tune as I traditionally do as a match go’s Deep . Definitely interesting

Added note, when I installed the 1st tuner it wasn’t because I new it would solve or iron out any problems up front but a moment to “Learn” or document test could a tuner play some roll in getting situation to a point of being useful was the question… after the 1st attempt being as it was I logged the info in my pee brain and moved on… then several years later a 2nd situation that was far less bad but poor enough started as second opportunity to learn and damned if it didn’t work. Barrel number three was even far less poor than the first two just couldn’t clear the hump so implemented the work again and bingo. Crazy cool
Shawn Williams

That wart barrel shot pretty damn good when I was there !!

the combo has been pretty solid Jim ..

Shawn Williams

 

[ELR LVR]

gunsandgunsmithing I hope to see a "site sponsor" or at least a "silver member" under your name pal, lemme know if you need to borrow $50....I can do PayPal in you name

It's $60 now

 

[Larry Koch]

Tuners work great when pre-loaded for a match. I watched a shooter next to me using Mikes turner stay in tune all day with the same load. So I purchased one. It still on the to do list. For me Im waiting on a new action. BlackKnight. 2 years.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I believe a tuner is a device to take the place of precise load development
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I do see guys who really know their stuff using them,
It may help to widen the tuning window perhaps? or accomplish the same thing as slightly tweaking your load for different conditions.
I prefer load development, but one day I may try a tuner just to see how much of an effect it has
I noticed Cortina has marketed one and he is a very accomplished LR shooter who knows how to conduct proper load development, so they must be useful.
--------------------------------------------------------------
It's just....if a guy is able to tweak & tune his loads to shoot in the .1's or even in the .2's
I don't see how a tuner would help do anything more.

I don't advocate using a tuner to take the place of load development. I use them after load development to maintain peak tune. IOW, if powder A will only shoot mid .2s but powder B gives me teens, a tuner will keep powder A shooting mid .2s and powder B shooting teens.
If you only try powder A, you'd never see the potential of the rifle, tuner or not.

They can tune any load to shoot to its potential but if that potential isn't good enough, the tuner won't fix that. I believe you still need to do load development in order to know you're getting everything from your rifle.

This is how the Browning BOSS was used to tune rifles to crappy factory ammo. Properly tuned, it would shoot better, but it was never gonna be a br rifle.

 

[ELR LVR]

I don't advocate using a tuner to take the place of load development. I use them after load development to maintain peak tune. IOW, if powder A will only shoot mid .2s but powder B gives me teens, a tuner will keep powder A shooting mid .2s and powder B shooting teens.
If you only try powder A, you'd never see the potential of the rifle, tuner or not.

They can tune any load to shoot to its potential but if that potential isn't good enough, the tuner won't fix that. I believe you still need to do load development in order to know you're getting everything from your rifle.

This is how the Browning BOSS was used to tune rifles to crappy factory ammo. Properly tuned, it would shoot better, but it was never gonna be a br rifle.

They're an interesting device I must admit
Though having never used one myself this is what I find somewhat hard to fathom.
---Seeing they are adjustable in what looks like .001" increments
So a question:
----do they bring a rifle back into tune with only perhaps a .005" adjustment?
If so..............That to me would mean that our barrels themselves could also be tuned by shaving
.005" at a time off the muzzle.
I'm more a proponent of fine tuning seating depth to accomplish the same thing.

 

[jobhopper66]

The thing that bothers me the most about this thread is the OP himself. He has not been on here since his initial post so it would appear to me he really didn't have a genuine interest in this topic and all that came of it is a big pissing match between site members.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

They're an interesting device I must admit
Though having never used one myself this is what I find somewhat hard to fathom.
---Seeing they are adjustable in what looks like .001" increments
So a question:
----do they bring a rifle back into tune with only perhaps a .005" adjustment?
If so..............That to me would mean that our barrels themselves could also be tuned by shaving
.005" at a time off the muzzle.
I'm more a proponent of fine tuning seating depth to accomplish the same thing.

I believe you're still looking at a tuner as a means to replace load development..but, yes, what you're saying is plausible but I wouldn't conclude .005 from a naked bbl equates to .005 of tuner travel. Regardless though, wouldn't it be much easier to move a tuner vs trial and error testing of removing bbl material?

 

[ELR LVR]

I believe you're still looking at a tuner as a means to replace load development..but, yes, what you're saying is plausible but I wouldn't conclude .005 from a naked bbl equates to .005 of tuner travel. Regardless though, wouldn't it be much easier to move a tuner vs trial and error testing of removing bbl material?

No Sir, not to "Replace" Load Development
I believe I said, I am a proponent of proper load development mainly --- seating depth
And if these are the type of results I get after proper load development
I don't see how I could realize any further improvement with a tuner added is all I mean.
-----------As far as shaving .005 off, guys with a lathe will do some craaaaazy things
How do you think the magic 21.5" barrel length came about in Benchrest? Not 22", not 21"
a guy like Ackley or Pindell or someone, (I dont remember who) did just that, kept shaving length off the barrel until extreme accuracy was realized then kept going and saw accuracy slip back away.
Again, I am not knocking a tuner, for guys who don't wish to put in the time Fine tuning Load Development
But if a rifle is already shooting in the .1's ----I dont see a tuner doing much further.
------------
What I do believe, is maybe a Tuner will reduce the amount of recipe's needing to be
tried within Load Development ?
Would that be an accurate statement in your opinion?
As opposed to trying 10 different powders perhaps trying to find the magic load?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The thing that bothers me the most about this thread is the OP himself. He has not been on here since his initial post so it would appear to me he really didn't have a genuine interest in this topic and all that came of it is a big pissing match between site members.

There's a lot of good info in this thread for anyone interested, too. Nobody was tricked into reading it.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No Sir, not to "Replace" Load Development
I believe I said, I am a proponent of proper load development mainly --- seating depth
And if these are the type of results I get after proper load development
I don't see how I could realize any further improvement with a tuner added is all I mean.
-----------As far as shaving .005 off, guys with a lathe will do some craaaaazy things
How do you think the magic 21.5" barrel length came about in Benchrest? Not 22", not 21"
a guy like Ackley or Pindell or someone, (I dont remember who) did just that, kept shaving length off the barrel until extreme accuracy was realized then kept going and saw accuracy slip back away.
Again, I am not knocking a tuner, for guys who don't wish to put in the time Fine tuning Load Development
But if a rifle is already shooting in the .1's ----I dont see a tuner doing much further

I agree that if someone expects a tuner to make their best groups better, they're setting themselves up for disappointment. Perfect tune can't be made better..but tune is dynamic. That's why so many top shooters tune to the changing conditions, or with a tuner.

I wouldn't put much value on the 21.5 inch length. I think that came from the Houston warehouse tests but just as importantly, weight requirements.
I've done what you refer to with cutting bbls very progressively shorter. I could tell ya a story related to it but it's too long to type out. But yes, it shot great. That bbl was one that sent me down the tuner path.

 

[ELR LVR]

I guess this is what I meant, because I believe I worded myself incorrectly earlier
---if a person does not wish to put in a lot of time trying every possible combination to find the most accurate load possible, then in a way to me that is
---"using a tuner to replace trying every combination within load devlopment"
(Some guys only have or want to try 3 powders for instance, maybe they can tune in their load to a finer degree with their 1 of 3 powders...
When another person might be able to achieve the same results or accuracy by trying a wider array of different types of powders, without using a tuner.
(And if this is the case then it makes good sense, who wants to try 10 different combos when you could use a tuner and only try 3?)
And yes, The Houston Wharehouse experiments I think is where I read about the whole barrel length thing.
I did some experimenting similar starting at 24 inches and did find once I got down to 20 inches accuracy degraded. And it shot best around 21-3/4" so I did find that interesting. but I don't hold fast to that rule.
I don't find my 30 inch or 28 inch barrels suffer much by their length, so I believe it was more that persons results and finding

 

[perazziguy]

The main reason Im not a tuner fan. Very hard for guys to not tuner tune a barrel. A real tune doesnt go out of tune all that much. Tuner tunes do. Also just my experiance dealing with a lot of customers. I really like to see guys learn to tune first. Once your in the hunt then try a tuner. But I dont like to see new guys on them.

I like this. I'm in this category. I have a 6br, scads of bullets, powder and primers. Basically zero load tuning experience. Even less experience with bench set-up and rifle handling skills. But, ya have to start somewhere... Unfortunately, shotgunning and ATA trap doesn't really cross over to bench rest.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I guess this is what I meant,
---if a person does not wish to put in a lot of time trying every possible combination to find the most accurate load possible, then in a way to me that is
---"using a tuner to replace trying every combination within load devlopment"
(Some guys only have or want to try 3 powders for instance, maybe they can tune in their load to a finer degree with their 1 of 3 powders...
When another person might be able to achieve the same results or accuracy by trying more different types of powders

I believe we agree and making the same point except, load development is not the same as making slight changes to that load as conditions change. That's what tuners do but they should not be used to replace normal initial load development.