Trued Rem 700 vs Custom Actions

[Sniper338]

Lloyd,
I am not challenging your statement here, just trying to learn as I have a trued 700 on my FTR rifle. Shoots pretty darn good although I have never fired a custom action rifle.
Question regarding your statement above. Let's say you have already had your 700 factory action tuned and trued, custom Benchmark barrel, Timney trigger, XLR chassis (yes this is mine). If I were to replace the action on my rifle with a Bat or Bordon or some similar custom action. What difference in performance could one expect? I mean, would one expect it to be a noticeable difference on the paper?
Looking at it from my point of view. I have had to develop the rifle over two years, primarily due to lack of funds, doing a little at a time. If I purchased a custom action that would run about $1300. I could sell my action for maybe $300 (rounding here). Then I would most likely have to have my barrel matched to the new action at a cost of $300. So for lets say a net of $1300 (assuming everything else would work with the custom action) would I really see that much of a difference on paper?
I ask because I am contemplating this for the hopefully not so distant future.

Thats the whole point of the OP! Curiositys a bitch. In your case a 1300 dollar possible no difference on paper. This was my point of the OP. Maybe you would pick up a bit tighter groups? But is it worth 1300? Who knows haha

 

[Milo 2.0]

Even if you buy the tools, it won’t help if you don’t understand the measuring and machining concepts required. The problem is the machining skill (and corresponding measuring skill) of the average gunsmith not the tooling.

I understand your point of view, but I've seen a lot of smiths start out with Rem 700's as their platform and make good shooting rifles, and a business to boot.
A lot has happened action wise in the last 15 yrs, last 5 even more so.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I’m not sure how they can true your action. If the “datum” used is the thread axis, I wish you a lot of luck.

It's not. Maybe you should check it out before you make an uninformed opinion.

 

[Sniper338]

I think everyone agrees here in different ways. We all know its just better to get a custom from the get go....

But to steer the thread back towards all things equal and only factors changed are a trued 700 vs a custom and the accuracy difference on paper...

It seems as though the consensus is the action doesnt make a big difference in accuracy as a final product if a 700 truing is done well..

We all agree go custom to squeeze anything possible out of it all. Thats not even debatable, its a known.

 

[300_whisper]

Im no pro but my guess all-things-equal, for now is:

Action - .5%
Barrel - 10%
Stock fit/bedding - 10%
Gunsmith machining skills - 79.5%


10% for a barrel ? Now I know this is not a serious thread.

It needs to read

Action - 10%
Barrel - 10%
Gunsmithing (including stock and stock work) - 10%

Shooter - 70%

There was a statement in the thread that a turd barrel will make a turd rifle, I think a turd shooter will also contribute to a turd rifle!

 

[Evan]

I’m not sure how they can true your action. If the “datum” used is the thread axis, I wish you a lot of luck.

They appear to use bushings in the raceway to define center. It's definitely got some downsides, but I can't say from personal experience if they have any practical effect on the outcome.

The top tier customs maybe won't exceed the accuracy of a well done 700 in the basic sense; both can produce 1 hole groups. What you'll get with the custom is an action that doesn't ever behave differently. Operational consistency that will let you develop a rythmn in shooting that can be harder to establish with a factory action. I'm talking based on my trued remington 700 vs my borden rimrock.

 

[butchlambert]

Quote from ledslanger-"Never have had extraction issues with a factory 700". chuckle, chuckle, chuckle. urbanrifeman-What do you consider a trued or "blueprinted"assembly? Give me a step by step as to what you will be doing. How much does the PT&G tooling cost and what does it consist.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

It's not. Maybe you should check it out before you make an uninformed opinion.

IF it was SO easy then why does a Good Gunsmith charge anywhere from 200 to 450 bucks to take a factory action and upgrade it. IF the bolt is double-sleeved then we are looking at 400-500 bucks. - I'll tell you Why, because its time consuming and takes not only the right tools but a gunsmith who Knows what he's doing.

This is NOT an uninformed opinion, I have 4 factory actions that I had upgraded - meaning everything single-point cut - aka: blueprinted and the bolts double-sleeved - And Yes the all shoot very well. - IF I had it all to do over again at the point I am now I'd probably have spent 100-200 more & went with the custom action.

 

[tom]

Heck, I even have expensive custom actions upgraded... and have seen the difference in aggregates. There's no percentage I can put on just the "action" because there's been other advancements as well.

It's not that many years ago(2008) were I posted up an aggregate record (10 shot groups) for my best 6 of 10(throwing the worst 4 out) that was 6.1xx inches average. I started using actions that were gone through in 2015. The last 4 years have produced a 40 target aggregate(out of 40, throwing none out) of 5.9xx inches average in heavy class(10 shot groups). As I stated earlier, there are other advancements as well as knowledge gained aiding these statistics. But I haven't had a barrel that wasn't competitive in about 4 years. I believe it's not a coincidence.

Tom

 

[Bart B.]

The last 4 years have produced a 40 target aggregate(out of 40, throwing none out) of 5.9xx inches average in heavy class(10 shot groups).

That's a little better than wonderful.

What's the biggest and smallest 10-shot group sizes, to see the spread?

 

[ttfreestyle]

Heck, I even have expensive custom actions upgraded... and have seen the difference in aggregates. There's no percentage I can put on just the "action" because there's been other advancements as well.

It's not that many years ago(2008) were I posted up an aggregate record (10 shot groups) for my best 6 of 10(throwing the worst 4 out) that was 6.1xx inches average. I started using actions that were gone through in 2015. The last 4 years have produced a 40 target aggregate(out of 40, throwing none out) of 5.9xx inches average in heavy class(10 shot groups). As I stated earlier, there are other advancements as well as knowledge gained aiding these statistics. But I haven't had a barrel that wasn't competitive in about 4 years. I believe it's not a coincidence.

Tom

When is my tuning lesson

 

[tom]

That's a little better than wonderful.

What's the biggest and smallest 10-shot group sizes, to see the spread?

Biggest - Year - Smallest
8.242 ... 2015 ... 3.610
11.154 ... 2016 ... 5.13
6.989 ... 2017 ... 3.136
7.319 ... 2018 ... 3.291

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Heck, I even have expensive custom actions upgraded... and have seen the difference in aggregates. There's no percentage I can pit on just the "action" because there's been other advancements as well.

Tom

I agree that there are some sub par custom actions. I won't argue that there aren't times they can be improved upon. The only thing I'll say is that before I cut on a custom that claims .0002" tolerances, I have to be sure there is a problem. A lot of lathes won't hold those tolerances brand spanking new. Your test setup needs to be twice as precise as the tolerance you're checking.

Then you have setup error, but lets say we can indicate something in our brand new lathe to run within .0002" with all our best tools.

In this scenario we have the potential for .0004" of error if everything we think is perfect, is. That's why a test fixture needs to be twice as precise as you're checking. How many of us are using a brand new lathe? Before we get crazy, that's not anything to worry a great deal about but in this example, I'm just pointing out potential error and the problems with first verifying and then correcting something that is supposed to be within .0002"

It's one thing to set a part up and machine it to those tolerances, which is freakin excellent, btw...but a whole different kitty when you factor in two separate setups in quite possibly two different machines.

We tend to accept that everything in our equipment is perfect when the indicator runs true but it's different when you lay tool to metal most of the time...tool deflection, temperature, headstock deflection, etc.

All I'm saying is I have to be sure before I cut. Tom, I'm not singling you or anyone out by any means. You just brought up a good topic in this regard and people need to realize what's involved it even proclaiming an action bad...much less perfecting upon them.

Here's an inspection report on a new lathe..

 

[tom]

Mike, most of what I'm talking about is ignition related, but we'll need Alex to verify. Most of what you said, and he tells me is so far over my head.....I just make them shoot the best I can, and look to my own results to compare apples to apples. I do my best to keep my brain on things I'm smart enough to understand lol.

Tom

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike, most of what I'm talking about is ignition related, but we'll need Alex to verify. Most of what you said, and he tells me is so far over my head.....I just make them shoot the best I can, and look to my own results to compare apples to apples. I do my best to keep my brain on things I'm smart enough to understand lol.

Tom

The targets seldom lie and what works...works. It's hard to argue with anything that is working for you....I'm not.

 

[Sniper338]

It needs to read

Action - 10%
Barrel - 10%
Gunsmithing (including stock and stock work) - 10%

Shooter - 70%

There was a statement in the thread that a turd barrel will make a turd rifle, I think a turd shooter will also contribute to a turd rifle!

Your off topic. The shooter isnt a factor. We are talking rifle build and quality.

 

[ridgeway]

The PTG tools are done by hand. It's pretty self explanatory. All you need is marking die and the tools and bushings. You don't need a machine. They are really very cool.

They pretty much follow what is there...not exactly something you want to use if you want it done right. Just because it cuts doesn't necessarily mean it makes it true.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

My advice is to buy the best action you can from a manufacturer with some background in Benchrest. Even if its not a Benchrest action.

 

[300_whisper]

Your off topic. The shooter isnt a factor. We are talking rifle build and quality.

A $10k rifle isn’t worth a crap if you can’t shoot it. I saw that first hand at a recent comp.

But to “stay on topic,” I would break it up into quarters then.

Action - 25
Barrel - 25
Stock - 25
Quality Smith - 25

If anything is out of whack then the rifle isn’t shooting.

Scope and mounts is a whole different realm to consider.

 

[Boisblancboy]

Does anyone have any test results to show the difference between group sizes from a trued action vs custom?

Just by reading all the comments I’m guessing the results are pretty close.