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Too many midrange cleans!

That sounds like a friendly local match.

Like others have said, "too many cleans" isn't really a problem.
He said headsets, that sounds like a team match.

Technically, coaching isn’t allowed during single competition. We may coach a new shooter while they get a feel of what Fclass is about.
 
I don't shoot Fclass but a saw a video of a 600 yard match. Noticed they allow coaching and other people helping and telling them were to aim also some had the guns on recoil rails which seems like cheating. Do they allow remote triggers too?

If you want more of a challenge get rid of all that stuff and let just the shooters shoot and call their own wind with no headsets telling him anything.

I thought if they tied they used the zero point Xs (true bullseyes) to pick a winner.

Are you saying there is like 50 round sudden death shoot offs all the time? I can see if people run out of ammo it cold be a problem.

Is a 60 out of 60 like a 300 in bowling? rare but it happens?

not sure what video you are looking at. maybe a Team event? if yes, then yes team you can and most do have a wind caller/coach. and still with a wind caller and coach the national record for team is still a very solid score but is still not a "perfect" National team record is 800-60x. that is 4 shooters shooting 20 shots each. So their team shooters average was 200-15x per shooter.

I mentioned above. The current national record at 600 yards for Open class 20 rounds is 200-23x. or rather 200 with 20x and +3x bonus if you will.


I have not been to a match where a winner could not be resolved with simple "creedmoor" rule. counting backwards looking for who dropped the point or X last.

Shooting 20x or beyond is very rare. but it does happen at Midrange: 300,500,and 600 yards. Shooting a 600-60x has never been done (FTR or OPEN) as far as I have seen at any distance, even at 300. Same in TR no one has shot 600-60x or even at 200-20x at 300 or 600.


F-Class - Open (Rule 3.4(a)) [60]​

Individual High Power Rifle Long Range​

20 Shots, 600 Yards​

CategoryRecord HolderScoreX/10+Score+X/10DateTime
OpenJIM FOWLER ARKADELPHIA, AR20020310/6/201912:00 AM
CivilianJIM FOWLER ARKADELPHIA, AR20020310/6/201912:00 AM
ServiceSsg. Emil Kovan Falcon, CO200185/4/201312:00 AM
ServiceLt. Keith Trapp Chesapeake, VA2001810/26/201412:00 AM
PoliceCODY RICHARDSON GEORGETOWN, IN200192/13/201912:00 AM
Women'sMARGERY DEBOWSKI HOUSTON, TX2001911/18/201812:00 AM
JuniorNathan Moseman Laurel, MT200196/11/202212:00 AM
SeniorBret Solomon Monroe, MI200207/24/202112:00 AM
Grand SeniorPeter Ricci Scottsdale, AZ2002011/6/202112:00 AM


F-Class - Open (Rule 3.4(a)) [60]​

Individual High Power Rifle Long Range​

F-Class Mid-Range Prone Course - 60 Shots​

CategoryRecord HolderScoreX/10+Score+X/10DateTime
OpenShawn Broussard Iota, LA6005410/2/202112:00 AM
CivilianShawn Broussard Iota, LA6005410/2/202112:00 AM
ServiceLT Keith Trapp, USN Chesepeake, VA6004110/1/201612:00 AM
PoliceJASON PAGAN OWENSBORO, KY600346/8/201912:00 AM
Women'sTracy Harrold Hackett, AR6004910/2/202112:00 AM
JuniorCole Broussard Iota, LA6004210/3/202112:00 AM
SeniorBret Solomon Monroe, MI600537/25/202112:00 AM
Grand SeniorJohn A. Amber Lexington Park, MD600489/4/202112:00 AM



F-Class - TR (Rule 3.4(b)) [61]​

Individual High Power Rifle Long Range​

F-Class Mid-Range Prone Course - 60 Shots​

CategoryRecord HolderScoreX/10+Score+X/10DateTime
OpenCraig Martin Bay St. Louis, MS6004710/5/201912:00 AM
OpenPeter Allen Johns Moore, TX6004710/6/201912:00 AM
OpenCraig Martin Bay St. Louis, MS6004710/2/202112:00 AM
CivilianCraig Martin Bay St. Louis, MS6004710/5/201912:00 AM
CivilianPeter Allen Johns Moore, TX6004710/6/201912:00 AM
CivilianCraig Martin Bay St. Louis, MS6004710/2/202112:00 AM
ServiceDONALD ERPENBACH HELENA, MT596208/3/201912:00 AM
PoliceNick Abbott Cleveland, TX5984311/17/201912:00 AM
Women'sNancy Tompkins Prescott, AZ599414/9/202112:00 AM
JuniorSYDNIE LIPSKI HUBBARD LAKE, MI598399/1/201812:00 AM
SeniorCarl Matthews Houston, TX600452/20/202212:00 AM
Grand SeniorJack Sapp Port Charlotte, FL598313/25/202212:00 AM


F-Class - TR (Rule 3.4(b)) [61]​

Individual High Power Rifle Long Range​

20 Shots, 600 Yards​

CategoryRecord HolderScoreX/10+Score+X/10DateTime
OpenRaymond Weaver Sugar Land , TX2001911/14/202112:00 AM
CivilianRaymond Weaver Sugar Land , TX2001911/14/202112:00 AM
ServiceDonald Erpenbach Helena, MT200145/29/201612:00 AM
PoliceNICK ABBOTT CLEVELAND, TX2001711/17/201912:00 AM
Women'sJenniffer Bondurant Sinton, TX200163/26/201712:00 AM
JuniorJohn Lane Allen Hernando, MS2001510/24/202012:00 AM
SeniorSteve Ernst Cannon Falls, MN200168/26/201712:00 AM
SeniorDENNIS POWNALL PAYSON, AZ200162/13/201912:00 AM
SeniorCarl Matthews Houston, TX200162/20/202212:00 AM
SeniorKeith Conrad Hallsville, MO200163/25/202212:00 AM
Grand SeniorRaymond Weaver Sugar Land , TX2001911/14/202112:00 AM



F-Class - TR (Rule 3.4(b)) [61]​

Individual High Power Rifle Long Range​

20 Shots, 300 Yards​

CategoryRecord HolderScoreX/10+Score+X/10DateTime
OpenFREDRIK SJODIN SUGARLAND, TX200197/15/201812:00 AM
OpenJACK DEAN CAPE CORAL, FL2001912/2/201812:00 AM
CivilianFREDRIK SJODIN SUGARLAND, TX200197/15/201812:00 AM
CivilianJACK DEAN CAPE CORAL, FL2001912/2/201812:00 AM
ServiceLt. Keith Trapp Chesapeake, VA2001510/26/201412:00 AM
PolicePeter A. Bono Cape Coral, FL2001611/16/201612:00 AM
Women'sNancy Tompkins Prescott, AZ200184/9/202112:00 AM
JuniorSYDNIE LIPSKI HUBBARD LAKE, MI200169/1/201812:00 AM
SeniorAlan Barnhart Tustin, MI200189/22/201712:00 AM
Grand SeniorJOHN MCGOWEN PORT CHARLOTTE, FL2001712/27/201712:00 AM


F-Class - Open (Rule 3.4(a)) [60]​

Individual High Power Rifle Long Range​

20 Shots, 300 Yards​

CategoryRecord HolderScoreX/10+Score+X/10DateTime
OpenDavid Decareaux Brandon, MS200200129/22/201712:00 AM
CivilianDavid Decareaux Brandon, MS200200129/22/201712:00 AM
ServiceLT Keith Trapp, USN Chesapeake, VA2001610/1/201612:00 AM
PoliceBenjamin Steinsholt Houston, TX200181/17/201612:00 AM
Women'sMargery Debowski Houston, TX200187/16/201712:00 AM
JuniorFredrick G. Sjodin Sugarland, TX200188/20/201712:00 AM
SeniorDOUG SKOGMAN FRIENDSWOOD , TX2002016/24/201812:00 AM
Grand SeniorMike McSwain Matthews, NC20020210/19/201312:00 AM
 
I don't shoot Fclass but a saw a video of a 600 yard match. Noticed they allow coaching and other people helping and telling them were to aim also some had the guns on recoil rails which seems like cheating. Do they allow remote triggers too?

If you want more of a challenge get rid of all that stuff and let just the shooters shoot and call their own wind with no headsets telling him anything.

I thought if they tied they used the zero point Xs (true bullseyes) to pick a winner.

Are you saying there is like 50 round sudden death shoot offs all the time? I can see if people run out of ammo it cold be a problem.

Is a 60 out of 60 like a 300 in bowling? rare but it happens?
None of that is legal in F-Class individual matches. I've never once seen recoil rails or remote triggers at an F-Class match, so whatever video you were watching apparently had little relation to an actual F-Class shooting event. Perhaps it was a team event or a practice session. Sometimes "help" is allowed by the Match Director at a local/club match to assist a new shooter getting on target during sight-in. Even then, it should stop once the shooter starts record fire.

600 point "cleans" happen occasionally in (3x20-shot) 600 yd MR events, especially among F-Open shooters or thereabouts, but the majority of shooters aren't posting cleans. Regardless, a reliable system is already in place to differentiate between shooters with the same numerical score, even shooters with the same numerical score and the same X-count. It works. As was noted above, two shooters both having 600-60X scores would present a challenge under the current system used to differentiate shooters having the same score. IF that ever happens (and that's a big "IF"), the system will have to be modified in some way to account for the scores and declare a winner. Until such time, the current system works just fine.

For reasons that aren't clear to me, there is always someone that wants to change the F-Class rules. These aren't even necessarily individuals that the "proposed" rule change would impact. Nonetheless, they perceive something is "wrong" with the current rules and therefore believe a change is necessary. My suggestion would be to create a new shooting discipline, make the rules whatever they would like, and leave the F-Class rules alone.
 
That sounds like a friendly local match.

Like others have said, "too many cleans" isn't really a problem.
It was 2020 Midrange F-Class Team National Championship

Look at how the gun recoils straight-back like its on a rail. Some high tech front rest system.

But even in this one they had a winner I don't think there were ties.

It could be where people want more misses maybe everyone is getting near perfect and harder to break away from the pack. Like if everyone bowling rolls 280+ every time.

I guess going to open sights would be a way I thought F-class was sort of a handicap division to begin with. Some guy named Farky invented it so he could keep compeating, like senior golf tour.

F-Class was named after the founder of this type of shooting: George “Farky” Farquharson of Canada. As he aged, his eyesight and unsteady muscles started giving out. He wanted to find a way to continue shooting with his longtime competition friends. So, he petitioned the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (DCRA) to allow him to replace his iron sight with a telescopic one, and use something to rest his rifle on, rather than try to hold it still with a sling. Luckily, the DCRA granted his request.

Farky added a bipod to his rifle and a rear sand bag to rest the butt on, and from those modest beginnings, F-Class was born.
 
It was 2020 Midrange F-Class Team National Championship

Look at how the gun recoils straight-back like its on a rail. Some high tech front rest system.

But even in this one they had a winner I don't think there were ties.

It could be where people want more misses maybe everyone is getting near perfect and harder to break away from the pack. Like if everyone bowling rolls 280+ every time.

I guess going to open sights would be a way I thought F-class was sort of a handicap division to begin with. Some guy named Farky invented it so he could keep compeating, like senior golf tour.

F-Class was named after the founder of this type of shooting: George “Farky” Farquharson of Canada. As he aged, his eyesight and unsteady muscles started giving out. He wanted to find a way to continue shooting with his longtime competition friends. So, he petitioned the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (DCRA) to allow him to replace his iron sight with a telescopic one, and use something to rest his rifle on, rather than try to hold it still with a sling. Luckily, the DCRA granted his request.

Farky added a bipod to his rifle and a rear sand bag to rest the butt on, and from those modest beginnings, F-Class was born.

That's a team match. The team coaches itself. There is a shooter and wind coaches. The rests are pretty standard "Open" gear.
 
It was 2020 Midrange F-Class Team National Championship

Look at how the gun recoils straight-back like its on a rail. Some high tech front rest system.

But even in this one they had a winner I don't think there were ties.

It could be where people want more misses maybe everyone is getting near perfect and harder to break away from the pack. Like if everyone bowling rolls 280+ every time.
It's simply a front rest. A rail gun, or gun shooting off a platform with rails is a different animal. In fairness, some manufacturer's front rests have become pretty high tech. They're not inexpensive, either. Unfortunately, the same is even true of some of the bipods F-TR shooters are currently using. Nonetheless, these devices may help improve consistency, but they will not cover up poor shooting or wind-reading skills. The shooter still has to drive the rifle correctly, even with a high tech front rest or bipod, and they have to be able to read the conditions.

There is no doubt that the cost of high end custom rifles, reloading components, and high tech bipods/front rests have arguably priced some F-Class shooters out of having the very best available gear. However, there are still plenty of competitors showing up at matches with absolute top-of-the-line equipment. This has often been used as an argument for something like a "factory" class in F-Class; for example, using production rifles and/or commercial ammunition. I would envision that maintaining consistent standards among shooters in such a class would be very difficult. But again, nothing is stopping anyone from creating their own factory class and doing as they wish. Attempting to change F-Class rules to suit their own particular desires is likely to meet with significant resistance from other F-Class participants.
 
None of that is legal in F-Class individual matches. I've never once seen recoil rails or remote triggers at an F-Class match, so whatever video you were watching apparently had little relation to an actual F-Class shooting event. Perhaps it was a team event or a practice session. Sometimes "help" is allowed by the Match Director at a local/club match to assist a new shooter getting on target during sight-in. Even then, it should stop once the shooter starts record fire.

600 point "cleans" happen occasionally in (3x20-shot) 600 yd MR events, especially among F-Open shooters or thereabouts, but the majority of shooters aren't posting cleans. Regardless, a reliable system is already in place to differentiate between shooters with the same numerical score, even shooters with the same numerical score and the same X-count. It works. As was noted above, two shooters both having 600-60X scores would present a challenge under the current system used to differentiate shooters having the same score. IF that ever happens (and that's a big "IF"), the system will have to be modified in some way to account for the scores and declare a winner. Until such time, the current system works just fine.

For reasons that aren't clear to me, there is always someone that wants to change the F-Class rules. These aren't even necessarily individuals that the "proposed" rule change would impact. Nonetheless, they perceive something is "wrong" with the current rules and therefore believe a change is necessary. My suggestion would be to create a new shooting discipline, make the rules whatever they would like, and leave the F-Class rules alone.
Yes it was a team event so the rules must be different.

2020 Midrange F-Class Team National Championship​


I have no dog in this fight I don't shoot Fclass. I was just trying to see why some people would care. My guess is they want to see more misses fewer high scores more random events. But like you said maybe just move to a new class of shooting and leave Fclass as it is. Seems most shooters are use to it, dreaming of the perfect 60 shot score.

I think a very gusty day with 40 mph winds would be a challange with lower scores.
 
Yes it was a team event so the rules must be different.

2020 Midrange F-Class Team National Championship​


I have no dog in this fight I don't shoot Fclass. I was just trying to see why some people would care. My guess is they want to see more misses fewer high scores more random events. But like you said maybe just move to a new class of shooting and leave Fclass as it is. Seems most shooters are use to it, dreaming of the perfect 60 shot score.

I think a very gusty day with 40 mph winds would be a challange with lower scores.
It's all relative. If someone's home range is relatively protected from the wind, high scores including cleans with high X-counts will be more common. If the conditions are usually more challenging, lower scores will generally be the norm. Unfortunately for those that have a home range with typically benign conditions, they may be in for a rude awakening if they travel to a match at a range that typically has much stronger conditions. In contrast, those accustomed to shooting regularly in windy conditions at their home range may enjoy an advantage when traveling to other venues. Even differing wind conditions between each of the relays at a match can have a big impact on scores, because it is not always possible at larger matches to have all the shooters from a single discipline shoot on the same relay.

As much as we would like for everyone to be starting out exactly even and sort themselves out in terms of scores based solely on skill, that is not always possible. In addition to the obvious environmental variables, some shooters have more skill than others, some do a better job at load development, some have "hummer" barrels, etc. There are many things that can affect the outcome at matches beyond mere skill behind the rifle. Nonetheless, the best shooters usually rise to the top, regardless of outside influence that may be beyond their control. The good news is that the current scoring system is fully capable of deciding the finishing order of competitors, with the exception of the 600-60X tie situation mentioned previously.
 
Maybe... if you don't shoot the sport... you should abstain from interjecting your opinion in a thread regarding the rules of said sport. You really, really don't have the fundamental understanding to contribute anything useful to the discussion at hand.
Oh snap!! Monte just did a mic drop and left the stage!
 
Maybe... if you don't shoot the sport... you should abstain from interjecting your opinion in a thread regarding the rules of said sport. You really, really don't have the fundamental understanding to contribute anything useful to the discussion at hand.
You must be a recruiter for the sport, way to roll out the welcome mat.
 
You must be a recruiter for the sport, way to roll out the welcome mat.
He’s not wrong. We don’t shoot rail guns. If you are truly interested in the sport, there are a great many resources on how to get started and where to shoot.

Maybe take some time and do that, maybe find a local club. Take a gun and some ammo and go shoot.
 
He’s not wrong. We don’t shoot rail guns. If you are truly interested in the sport, there are a great many resources on how to get started and where to shoot.

Maybe take some time and do that, maybe find a local club. Take a gun and some ammo and go shoot.
Our Sportsman club range is 200 yards we do shoot targets and clays just not 600 yards. I never said I don't shoot just not tried F-Class. Rail guns? No the video I linked has some rests that look to have slides rails on them for recoil so the gun moves straight back. I'm sure they are legal and maybe allow more hits.

The OP had an opinion on the amount of cleans shooting targets. I was thinking of trying it but not if its too easy. The OP made it sound like it was getting too easy to have good scores. It could be he is wrong or maybe the technology has advanced to a point where a higher percentage of people are bunched together and its become a game of loads best barrel and the shooter skill has taken a back seat.

I've done PCP competitions where the equipment wars take over, so we changed to free hand shooting which flipped things the best guns were not winning all of a sudden.

Maybe the same thing has happened to F Class, the OP seems to think so. One way to get more info is from people right here on this site.
 
Our Sportsman club range is 200 yards we do shoot targets and clays just not 600 yards. I never said I don't shoot just not tried F-Class. Rail guns? No the video I linked has some rests that look to have slides rails on them for recoil so the gun moves straight back. I'm sure they are legal and maybe allow more hits.

The OP had an opinion on the amount of cleans shooting targets. I was thinking of trying it but not if its too easy. The OP made it sound like it was getting too easy to have good scores. It could be he is wrong or maybe the technology has advanced to a point where a higher percentage of people are bunched together and its become a game of loads best barrel and the shooter skill has taken a back seat.

I've done PCP competitions where the equipment wars take over, so we changed to free hand shooting which flipped things the best guns were not winning all of a sudden.

Maybe the same thing has happened to F Class, the OP seems to think so. One way to get more info is from people right here on this site.
The OP has an incorrect assumption. Again, come out and try it.

You are making assumptions based on a video and someone else’s assumptions. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
 
I've done PCP competitions where the equipment wars take over, so we changed to free hand shooting which flipped things the best guns were not winning all of a sudden.

The most accurate gun doesn't win Fclass matches nor does the worst one.


Time to shoot elsewhere because it’s a range that is conducive to trigger pulling contests.

"Trigger pulling contest" is a misnomer IMO.....it's called being prepared.
 
I pulled targets once for FO 600-50X. You guys can figure out who that was! :)

Was pretty funny when I was pasting holes and they ended up being a 1/4" thick in spots because of holes in holes.
 

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