Time to make the donuts....

[D Coots]

Dave-I had a little trouble with this too. Had to go back and re-read Randy’s post on this.

Roundness (TIR) is measured on the outside diameter of the bullet. A BULLET spinner will check roundness.

Concentricity as commonly used in bullet making jargon is a measure of the difference in thickness of the walls of the jacket itself. This can be measured with a JACKET spinner or a good tenth ball mic.(visualize two perfectly round circles having a slightly different axis. They are round but not concentric.

Thanks Jimmy...I had my terms between the 2 confused.

Later

Dave

 

[WIB3]

To get started in the hobby of bullet making be prepared to drop $10,000.00 in quality dies and presses. Than you need to buy components. Than you need a space that is environmentally stable, temperature and humidity. Than you need to figure out the process and willing to sacrifice components for experimentation. If you’re lucky enough to figure it all out you might be competitive. There are very few exceptional die makers that will have a conversation with you and support your future die and punch needs moving forward. Take some advice and buy from those who have figured it out..

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

You are talking 14-12 twist barrels. That tells me PPC. I’m not talking FB bullets. I’m referring to 1000yd BR. It’s a completely different game. There are many bullet makers in the 100-300yd game making Bullets.

No, I'm talking bullet stability vs all out accuracy. The less stable a bullet is....does it become more or less accurate with distance? IME, the more stable the bullet is...sooner...the better it will shoot at all yardages. Problem is...two fold. First, it takes a faster twist to stabilize long bullets AND, they do NOT shoot as small as short bullets at short range. This is not based on what someone told me or what I've heard from a HOF(etc) shooter...but what I've tested to be true, virtually always.

So, to make long bullets outshoot short ones, you have to first overcome their inherent accuracy deficiency. Yes, I said that! And, it's not a guess!

So, at what point does necessary length(bc) become more critical to all out accuracy? Length dictates twist, right?

fwiw, with the testing I have done with short/mid range BR rifles, twist has very little to do with it...as long as the bullet is stable. IOW...it's hard or maybe impossible to twist too fast...as long as the bullet holds up to the increased rpm.

Once more...this is NOT opinion but test results, with a national championship level sr rifle. Yes, as distance increases, the more we rely on bc to cover our own mistakes. No argument there.

 

[geo.ulrich]

Thanks George. .

but they shot great....

 

[geo.ulrich]

To get started in the hobby of bullet making be prepared to drop $10,000.00 in quality dies and presses. Than you need to buy components. Than you need a space that is environmentally stable, temperature and humidity. Than you need to figure out the process and willing to sacrifice components for experimentation. If you’re lucky enough to figure it all out you might be competitive. There are very few exceptional die makers that will have a conversation with you and support your future die and punch needs moving forward. Take some advice and buy from those who have figured it out..

wow really maybe I need to start making dies again....or at least get rid of the stock i have laying around

 

[WIB3]

Some of the very best die makers were Neimi and George U. They have retired or are in the process. You can’t do anything better. Purchase good bullets from a personal. Best wishes.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Some of the very best die makers were Neimi and George U. They have retired or are in the process. You can’t do anything better. Purchase good bullets from a personal. Best wishes.

I agree but my comment really has nothing to do with who made the bullet or the dies.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Jackie, You are over thinking that whole thing jacket concentricity is nice but not really what makes great jackets. I have had had hall of fame shooters do a blind test with .0007- .0008 tir jackets with .0001 jackets and d the funny part with three different shooters they all said they really close but the "lot B " bullets shoot a little bit better. They were the ones with .0007 tir...next I'm not a big bullet spinner kind of guy BUT its really usefull for setting dies actually I would consider crucial....

George, there seemed to be confusion among several posters about Jacket spinning and Finished Bullet checking.

I am simply trying to explain the difference.

I quit checking jackets years ago. Back when I made that jacket checker that I showed in post #317, I was out to save the whales. I got over that pretty quick.

 

[geo.ulrich]

George, there seemed to be confusion among several posters about Jacket spinning and Finished Bullet checking.

I am simply trying to explain the difference.

I quit checking jackets years ago. Back when I made that jacket checker that I showed in post #317, I was out to save the whales. I got over that pretty quick.

And what about bullet spinning?

 

[geo.ulrich]

also before forget about it to the guys using gage pins for core seating you better check the ends they are not ground square to the diameter so unless you have a surface grinder and are grinding the end good luck,
the same goes for the e pins bought from china or the US for that matter the head end is ground square but the tool maker grinds the punch end when fitting it to a die..

 

[jackieschmidt]

And what about bullet spinning?

I guess you mean the Vern Jeunke Machine.
About ten years I had access to one of those for some time. It belonged to the late Nick Marino.

Regardless if what it was telling us, it didn’t seem to show up on the target.
We checked some of Jeff Flowler’s bullets, and the darned needle went crazy.

But they all went in the same hole.

 

[geo.ulrich]

Jackie, no not the Juenke machine. I wasted to much time trying to figure out what it actually was measuring.
I measured jackets, seated cores, pointed bullets and couldn't ever establish what I was getting. I gave up after checking jacket then seating a core then pointing up getting the deviation through the process and then holding the bullet tight in hand to warm it and getting different numbers from when it was cold. that was enough for me. I'm talking about mechanical spinners with female centers and an indicator this what I use to seat cores

 

[D Coots]

Ha, looks familiar George....

 

[JoeDuke]

Dean, the only shank/base checkers I have are my barrels. Randy has multiple checking fixtures that he uses as Q.C. monitors...starting when the jackets hit his door. When I get a different lot number of jackets, I hit the Easy Button and just ask him how they check out!

Most of us dont have any equipment to measure the finished bullets other than a good mike or two. And we truly are at the mercy of the jacket supplier. We get what we get. So, as Al said above , the best checker you have is that barrel on your rifle. Do the bullets shoot to a competitive level or not.

 

[JoeDuke]

Jackie, no not the Juenke machine. I wasted to much time trying to figure out what it actually was measuring.
I measured jackets, seated cores, pointed bullets and couldn't ever establish what I was getting. I gave up after checking jacket then seating a core then pointing up getting the deviation through the process and then holding the bullet tight in hand to warm it and getting different numbers from when it was cold. that was enough for me. I'm talking about mechanical spinners with female centers and an indicator this what I use to seat cores

Thanks George. Can you tell us or show us how you use it? What are you measuring and how do you change it if it is not right?

 

[Kiwishooter]

Lot #58 were the magic ones 68 gr and by the way they were on sierra jackets

Thanks George, I've got some 66gr lot#95, what looks like "myles die" written on the label and the jackets are quite dark in colour
I haven't shot any of them yet

 

[Tim Singleton]

are the Hines jackets no more?

I have a good stash but haven't seen them available anywhere in a while

 

[geo.ulrich]

are the Hines jackets no more?

I have a good stash but haven't seen them available anywhere in a while

Tim I don't believe they are making now but I have not spoken to anyone there in years.

 

[geo.ulrich]

Thanks George. Can you tell us or show us how you use it? What are you measuring and how do you change it if it is not right?

Yep I sure can, figure what core seating punch you are going to use. seat core and spin seated core in spinner I start with light seating pressure just enough so it comes off the punch . check the runout of seated core then increase pressure and seat another one do not reseat the first again compare the runout to the first, do a third one with more pressure check that you will find a sweet spot where the jacket runs out the least amount you can get it to. you can keep increasing pressure and also go from good t.i.r and make it worse. it never made sense to pop a jacket and back off chances are they are seated way to much...what this all comes down to is jacket material thin soft jackets square up nice and easy with less pressure next we have the little bit thicker or harder ones they take a lot little more pressure and last we have the hard and thick ones their the ones that you just about have to pop a jacket pretty regularly plus they really dont preform the way we would want . as a side note since J4 has sold out the jacket material being used is really good as compared to what they were using...

 

[JoeDuke]

Yep I sure can, figure what core seating punch you are going to use. seat core and spin seated core in spinner I start with light seating pressure just enough so it comes of the punch . check the runout of seated core then increase pressure and seat another one do not reseat the first again compare the runout to the first, do a third one with more pressure check that you will find a sweet spot where the jacket runs out the least amount you can get it to. you can keep increasing pressure and also go from good t.i.r and make it worse. it never made sense to pop a jacket and back off chances are they are seated way to much...what this all comes down to is jacket material thin soft jackets square up nice and easy with less pressure next we have the little bit thicker or harder ones they take a lot little more pressure and last we have the hard and thick ones their the ones that you just about have to pop a jacket pretty regularly plus they really dont preform the way we would want . as a side note since J4 has sold out the jacket material being used is really good as compared to what they were using...

Thank you George. That makes perfect sense. You have added valuable information to this string.