Time to make the donuts....

[RGRobinett]

Randy, I moved my indicator stylus back to about .150 from the base, and they are better. I checked 10 jackets out of the lot I have and this is what they look like.

These are those jackets that I bought out of Ronnie Cheeks last order.View attachment 1626171View attachment 1626172

Over a LONG haul now, J4 jackets have usually run < 0.0002" wall-thickness variation, and only occasionally greater. This is displaying about average variation.

I have not had jackets assayed for about a decade now - a cousin, involved in that type of stuff, used to do that for me: J4 jackets from both the SpiveCO, Inc., and Carann (sp?), Inc. always assayed between 90-92% Cu, & 8 to 10 percent zinc: eg., 92:8; 90:10 , while Sierra were always 95:5. Hypothetically, the 95:5 ratio is [so called] gilding metal suitable for bullet jackets. I believe that the defunct Hines jackets were of the latter ratio.

Over time, when I have received 0.0003" jackets, and stewed, lost sleep, etc., but, HAD to use the MAXIMUM in tolerance stuff, there is ONE common thread . . . after shipping bullets and sweating it out, the phone begins ringing - "do you have any more of THOSE jackets, they're the best bullets I've ever had". . . . It's the same as with every lot, including the 0.0001" Lots ("precious ones"): as George has always argued (as in argument and persuasion), there's more to precision bullet performance than meets the eye.

Regarding [BR quality] bullets, if you, and/or, your bullet maker keeps his head out of dark recesses, most of what we fret over is, "LOST IN THE NOISE". Check your ego at the door. Keep 'em ON the X! RG

 

[RGRobinett]

Randy if I recall correctly you had some way worse and had the same results....

Yes, George, many years ago, during a 'shortage', I had all of my jackets committed to orders, and none left for yours truly. I knew that Guy Chism had received about 100K of BAD J4 (1.080" .30 Cal.), and had kept 3-4 cartons of them, "just in case" . . . I all but begged him to sell a case to me.

Guy didn't want me disappointed, or peeved, however, reluctantly, he agreed to let me purchase some: the result was the first and probably only full season, where I never dropped a point during any 100 yd. stage of NBRSA registered Hunter Class events . . . on the 0.150" DATUM line, those jackets ran 0.0007-.0008" of wall-thickness variation!

That season, I won every NBRSA registered [North Central Region] Hunter Class tournament, except the NBRSA Hunter Nationals, which were conducted by Don Deckert/Prairie Dog target Club . . . there, I finished a disappointing 3rd - those LOUSY bullets!

I never sold a single bullet made with those jackets (as I recall, 3 buckets)- they sure didn't hurt me too badly. That said, many years later, I "rejected" a 100K batch which indicated > 0.0004" variation: that was/is because I intended to sell them, and they were, technically, out of spec. - my customers deserve the best, while, in a pinch, I can "make-do", and still sleep at night. RG

P.S.: AND THAT was when we were still using 1:15" twist barrels! For those unfamiliar with Hunter Class:
10.0 Lb. weight limit; for-end width limit, 2&1/4"; 6x scope limit - VfS, which came along later, shoots the same target(s).

 

[tom]

@Mulligan they still make bullet spinners, and in multiple colors lol.



Tom

 

[Mulligan]

@Mulligan they still make bullet spinners, and in multiple colors lol.

View attachment 1626317

Tom

By golly, I believe you are right!
I stand corrected.

Clay

 

[brcman]

Randy Robinett, I sent you a PM.
Wayne Corley

 

[Tim Singleton]

George
Can you talk to us about the process of making bullet dies?

 

[tom]

Tom, Yes thats where the the final test is. but you still need to have a way to test bullet making setup, some sort of parameters to work to. kind of like chambering a barrel how would you feel if Alex just chucked up a new match grade barrel and didn't indicate anything in and chambered and threaded it. You can try that its easy enough...

Don't give him any ideas please!

Tom

 

[AlNyhus]

Finished up (mostly) mounting two Lee conversions.

This is the one Randy and I did to test the collet theory. At this point, it has the standard linkage.

This is a new George Ulrich conversion that uses conventional point up punches held in the adapter by a punch nut. If you look closely, you can see that George has done a double linkage modification. He also does a slick modification of the handle location. Thanks for all your help, George!

 

[brcman]

Randy- I sent you a PM.

Wayne Corley

 

[JoeDuke]

When I bought my first set of carbide dies (.224 Rorschach), for core-seating pressure, the original owner instructed me to apply pressure until the jacket, "blew" (pinched off) and back off about 1/8Th turn! Rounded-up, in decimals, for a 14 TPI die body, this would be about 0.009" - I didn't 'cotton to' that awful sound at "blow-off"!

Back on topic. When I got home with the Rorschach dies, I began measuring length and diameter to determine core-seat pressure, as that seemed logical and repeatable: never has this method failed to make excellent bullets. That said, Al might support the notion that I can get pretty close by "feel", however, measurements are a sure thing . . . tactile judgement is the alert button that something wasn't the same with a particular bullet. On the tours I have enjoyed, at mass producers, there have been no mechanism(s) to sort out a "funny feeler". A facet that a hand maker can and should employ!

For core seating, I have always used the add pressure until the shortest length, then add more pressure until the jackets lengthen 0.002-0.003" - not 0.005-0.007" - which is likely close to pinching the jacket off above the core!! The 0.001-0.002" stretch usually coincides with a satisfyingly 'straight' shank: same diameter at, and from, the core top, to just at the solid base, which, until pointing, will remain a couple of 1/10,000ths" smaller than the shank diameter.

Typically, when using J4 jackets, with the Niemi [.30 Cal.] dies, the cored jackets eject at 0.3083, and after a couple of days, 'resting', shrink back to about .3081". Then, via the point dies, the shanks run at .3083"- .30835" and the pressure-ring, will from jacket Lot-to-Lot, will be whatever it wants to be, within a range of .3084" to .3088", with the vast majority of Lots being .3086-.3087". The die maker can make a certain/specified shank diameter, but the pressure-ring [Dia.] is a unpredictable variable. RG

P.S. Edited my comment (red) for clarity.

Randy, given that you are talking of core seating for flat based bullets, can you elaborate on how the jacket changes in length if making boattail bullets? Is there any pause and then begin to stretch like mentioned above?
Joe

 

[jackieschmidt]

George
Can you talk to us about the process of making bullet dies?

What ever George does, it darned sure works.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Make sure everything is straight to the center line, and make sure the inserts don't move or break like some peoples ....

Thank you George
I think, several of us were hoping you could talk about sources for carbide inserts and that procurement process

 

[JoeDuke]

About a year ago, I ordered a set of the Blackmon steel die setup like Al has posted. I received them in mid December and have been busily learning to make .30 cal bullets with them. They are indeed different from using a set of carbide dies.
I was looking around for something to use to hold jackets and cores in preparation for core seating. I found this ammo box on midway and it works fairly well for the .30 caliber stuff.

Here is loaded up with jackets.

And here it has cores inserted and ready for the core seat die.

It is considerably slower than using a full blown set of bullet trays like I have for 6mm bullets but it works well for a smaller operation. I have no intentions of making bullets for others.

BTW, the bullets work pretty well also.

 

[AlNyhus]

Larry's dies in capable hands do indeed make excellent bullets!
Well done, Joe!

 

[Mulligan]

When I make bullets (long 6's), the diameter at the boat-tail/ bearing surface junction and bearing surface near the ojive/ogive (whichever spelling tickles your fancy) always shrinks when I measure at the time of "building" and again, a few days or weeks later. It appears that I do see slight differences in diameter .00005-.0001" (a tenth or less) at the time of build, however that difference is reduced over time to the point it is many times, not perceivable on my Mit snap gage. Said another way, the diameter is moving for some amount of time until a harmony is reached.
I assume this is a normal event? If so, what is an "average" amount of time before all is normalized?
Clay

 

[Mulligan]

I picked up this electronic microscope on Amazon.

It works pretty good for seeing the bleedby and making sure your not scraping the inside of the jacket

 

[Kiwishooter]

Jackie, at that DATUM area (you're measuring roughly mid-way into the tapered section) < 0.0007" variation in wall-thickness, according to my OLD SpiveCo, Inc. prints, is within J4 specification for .925" long jackets, at about 0.780" above the base. The < 0.0003"is specified at 0.150" from the inside-base.
RG

Randy where can the "prints" be found? Thanks

 

[D Coots]

I picked up this electronic microscope on Amazon.

It works pretty good for seeing the bleedby and making sure your not scraping the inside of the jacket

View attachment 1628828View attachment 1628835

I use my Hawkeye with the outside tube off. I'll have to give my microscope a try again sometime. Forgot about that....

 

[JoeDuke]

I picked up this electronic microscope on Amazon.

It works pretty good for seeing the bleedby and making sure your not scraping the inside of the jacket

View attachment 1628828View attachment 1628835

Do you have a link for this unit?

 

[brcman]

Joe Duke-
Tell us more about that ammo box, it looks like you are maybe loading it by hand? Or, have you made some sort of trays for loading it? You have me doing some mental engineering now.

Wayne