Thoughts on ICFRA compliant FTR reamers?

[Joe R]

I'm a newbie and I'm sure I sure don't understand the reasoning behind this rule. It's like saying that all Indy 500 races must run with an unmodified factory car engine.

I think the sport would be better served if the focus were on the bullet caliber and leave the rest to competitors to figure out. If people want to move to an AI type chamber so what? Competition will quickly resolve that issue and level the playing field.

Saami should be applied to factory rifle and ammo, not custom rifle that most competitors shoot. Much like car races are run by custom built cars not factory built cars.

 

[memilanuk]

Kind of the whole idea of F/TR was that there were some reasonable restrictions in place. Could or should they have been better defined earlier on? Probably, but they weren't.

Things have evolved to where most of the people shooting F/TR at a competitive level consider 'unmodified .223 Rem or .308 Win' to be interpreted, at a functional level, as not *exceeding* max SAAMI spec case dimensions as tested by a fired case passing freely into and out of a commercial case gauge such as the ones from Wilson or Dillon. The SAAMI print actually specs the freebore dimensions, which nobody abides by, as well as the number of lands - which everybody ignores, the throat angle, which... you get the picture. If we could hit a big 'RESET' button and go back and start over and specify some things more clearly, there are a lot of things that could have or should have been spelled out, rather than implied. But since we don't *have* a magic reset button, and most of the people who have anything other than a factory Remington probably have chambers that are not entirely in line with the canonical SAAMI print (even factory Savage 12 F/TRs use an Obermeyer .308 Win chamber with throat/neck dimensions smaller than SAAMI)... its more or less a case of the barn door has done been left open a long damn time ago. Crying foul about it now is kind of pointless.

 

[clowdis]

What's wrong with shooting a .308 chamber like it is and working on tuning yourself and your load? The rule is there to try to keep everything on a level plain and limit cost. If you want to experiment shoot F-open, that's why they have F-open. By the way Indy engines are "spec" engines.

 

[XTR]

Larry Bartholomeo (lbart here) has been in this game as long as anyone. He wrote a pretty long post a yr or so ago that mentioned some of what he remembered of the beginnings of F class.

This was not an idea that was sketched out before it happened, it evolved from a basic idea, and just as in any competition you have competitors and participants. Competitors play to win and as a part of that search for any advantage that they can gain with in the rules. (granted some may more loosely interpret those regs in that search) Originally there was no F-TR/F-Open, just F class.

I wasn't at the meetings 12 or 15 yrs ago or what ever it was but looking at the rules and George Farquartsen's original idea to put a scope and bipod on his Palma rifle I can make a pretty good guess how rules for F-TR came to be. "We need rules, how about we copy the Palma rules and add bipod, scope and rear bag." VIOLA! - F-TR

These are the rules we have. If you play by them then the field is level and they are the same for all. (and again I would recommend that anyone out there who wants to shoot F class go and read the rules, there is a recent thread that links them and will save you the trouble of searching for them to find them on this page on the NRA website.

 

[280man]

ICFRA has already started down the slippery slope of allowing the competitor to alter this dimension or that dimension but only a little and not to much here and some there.......
.you get the idea. Now we have a rule that is very difficult to enforce and harder to interpret . Would we not have been better off to leave it alone and make a 308 Win a 308 Win and leave the wildcats to Open Class?

 

[Joe R]

memilanuk said:
"But since we don't *have* a magic reset button..."

I don't mean to be argumentative, but there is a reset button. The lawyers call it "Amendment". People in leadership position must come together and reach a consensus on what the new rules should be. F-TR has had a set of rules that worked well enough while in infancy, now it has grown up and needs new rules. The problem seems to be a leadership/political issue. Whoever happens to be in a leadership position needs to step up and lead us to a conflict free promised land.

When my children were five years old my wife and I developed a set of rules for the kids, when they got to be ten years old we started having family meetings and the kids had some input in developing new rules of conduct. When they got to puberty we had to amend them again. You get the point.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[280man]

I agree Joe and the US NRA has an opportunity to get it right in the future if and when their rule is up for change

 

[Joe R]

Rick Jensen
2017 US F-Class Open Team Captain
Claremore, Oklahoma

Sorry Rick,
I didn't realize who I was talking to. I hope I haven't offended you in any way, if I have please accept my apology. I'm new here.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[280man]

Not at all Joe.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

My opinion is that if they want you to shoot SAMMI Spec cartridges. Then maybe they should have an off the shelf factory rifle class shooting the same factory ammo as every competitor.

 

[okshooter]

If you want to shoot a SAAMI Spec cartridge, there is a class for you. Its called FTR. If you don't care if you or your competition is shooting a SAAMI Spec cartridge, there is a class for you. Its called F-Open. Non-SAAMI throat length is already addressed in FTR rules. My opinion on the intent of the FTR chamber restrictions is to keep the competition close in regards to cartridge performance and, like has been said above a remnant of our Palma origins. Going from a standard 308 to a 308AI has a performance gain. I am calling velocity increase a performance gain. On the other hand, a tight neck does nothing to increase velocity, only, possibly, accuracy. Since there isn't anything in the rules about case requirements, only chamber, the only way I see to completely police a SAAMI Spec chamber rule would be to use go and no-go gauges with necks included in the chamber. I could see a lot of competitors not being real excited about having some official they don't know inserting a hardened steel gauge in their match barrel right before a match.

My thought is to have a gauge cut from say 1/8" thick steel, that a fired case could fit thru. It would take two profiles. One with minimum SAAMI case specs to make sure it's a 223/308, and a second that is the maximum allowed chamber spec. the only reason for the minimum spec would be to insure you're not shooting another round like a 7-08 or 6 BR. If a fired case went thru, you're DQd. The second gauge would insure that you aren't using an improved case, but it would not prevent a tight neck.

 

[XTR]

My opinion is that if they want you to shoot SAMMI Spec cartridges. Then maybe they should have an off the shelf factory rifle class shooting the same factory ammo as every competitor.

What wording would you propose in the rules to define the F-TR class cartridge(s)?

 

[XTR]

My thought is to have a gauge cut from say 1/8" thick steel, that a fired case could fit thru. It would take two profiles. One with minimum SAAMI case specs to make sure it's a 223/308, and a second that is the maximum allowed chamber spec. the only reason for the minimum spec would be to insure you're not shooting another round like a 7-08 or 6 BR. If a fired case went thru, you're DQd. The second gauge would insure that you aren't using an improved case, but it would not prevent a tight neck.

This is in fact basically what they have said they will do at the Worlds in Canada, which is what started this whole conversation. (spent case must fit in one gauge that is cut to sammi, and must not fit in a second which is sammi with a tighter neck.)

 

[280man]

Okshooter please explain where throat length is addressed in our US rules

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

So, if I understand correctly that means that currently the acceptable range is from .3422 to .3462 Of course that could change in the future or it could stay the same.

Actually, I think it is only 0.3442 - 0.3462", as the tolerance is +0.002", not +/- 0.002". Or maybe I read it wrong, and the tolerance is the other way? I am not an expert in these things. Anyway, pretty sure 0.340" is going to be outside the rules

I use a .340 neck and need a minimum of .006 clearance. So I turn down to a .334 neck. So if I use a .3462 max chamber and still need .006 clearance that would put me at .340 neck. I could be wrong, because nobody has a definitive answer. But to build a rifle, think that you are within spec, make the trip to Canada only to find out that you are out of spec is to big of a risk for me. Plus depending on temperature. That could cause all kinds of problems. To me that's to close to call, and to close to play their game.

Because there are so many questions. The only way they can solve this is to have the measuring tools available to anybody that wants to get them. Especially before a big match.

 

[okshooter]

Sorry Rick. I spoke without going back and checking my facts. I thought I read that the throat could be extended, but I can't find it so probably made it up in my head.

I got confused with rule F2.3 in the ICFRA rules.

 

[Joe R]

Maybe the simple solution would be to specify a bolt face (.473) and a maximum case length and let participants/competitors play with the neck and shoulder angles/dimensions without worries of being disqualified.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Sorry Rick. I spoke without going back and checking my facts. I thought I read that the throat could be extended, but I can't find it so probably made it up in my head.

I also read that the long throating is not effected by the rule change, well for now at least.

2. In rule F2.3, it has been added that in F/TR, throat dimensions can be
modified to suit the chosen bullet.

Here is what started it all.
http://www.gbfclass.co.uk/doc_downloads/2014-ICFRA-Memo-on-rule-changes.pdf

 

[okshooter]

This is in fact basically what they have said they will do at the Worlds in Canada, which is what started this whole conversation. (spent case must fit in one gauge that is cut to sammi, and must not fit in a second which is sammi with a tighter neck.)
[/quote]

I don't see this as being an accurate means of checking neck thickness. How would you account for spring back, load pressure, metallurgy, case hardness, etc. I could be shooting a SAAMI minimum spec chamber and not pass the gauge due to any of these factors. The only way I see to prove a tight neck chamber is with inside mics or a no-go gauge. If using inside mics, you would need to make sure you had someone that knew how to use them properly. With the no-go gauge, you could have the competitor insert it in his own chamber and it be up to him to apply as much pressure as he sees fit to get the bolt to close. Is a tight neck enough of an advantage to go thru this kind of effort to catch it? I doubt it.

 

[memilanuk]

I don't see this as being an accurate means of checking neck thickness. How would you account for spring back, load pressure, metallurgy, case hardness, etc. I could be shooting a SAAMI minimum spec chamber and not pass the gauge due to any of these factors.

Which is exactly why a number of competitors objected strenuously to this proposed ICFRA admin ruling.

Is a tight neck enough of an advantage to go thru this kind of effort to catch it? I doubt it.

Is it a huge accuracy advantage? Maybe maybe not. Minimizing stress on the necks when resizing is one of the reasons I've heard cited. Lapua .308 brass, turned for 80-90% clean-up, not a tight or fitted neck, just clean-up, measures .336-.337 for a loaded round. Sizing down from .344 rather than some smaller dimension can induce some runout. There are ways around it, but most involve tedious multi-step processes.

I still maintain that if what we're trying to do is limit the ballistic potential, run the case thru a fired-case gauge that already exists, rather than reinvent the wheel, and that will tell you if the chamber is too big. Who cares if its too small. I'm not swapping ammo with the guy next to me unless I *know* for sure he has a similar if not identical chamber, and if I do, the onus is upon me - not the people making the rules to try to protect me from myself.

You can range-lawyer this stuff to death - remember you are going to depend on *volunteers* to enforce it - the simpler the better. Multiple case gauges, dummy cartridges = never gonna get used.