Thoughts on ICFRA compliant FTR reamers?
- Thread starter Kakumba
- Start date
ARIZONA_F_CLASS
FTR LR High Master, FTR MR Master, Smalbore Master
Joe R said:
To the best of my knowledge. There is no limit.
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
I run a tight neck, if I were to order a reamer to get SAAMI spec, I would want it to be the minimum neck allowed. So, as stated, based on brass type, spring back, etc. I would still probably fail a gauge test. I understand that the body can't "hold more powder", but modifying a specification that IMO does't affect the capacity of a 308 should be left alone.
ARIZONA_F_CLASS said:
The way I understand both rules is that the chamber, including neck, has to meet SAAMI or CIP dimensions. I haven't looked up CIP, but for SAAMI, the neck tapers from .3462" at the neck-shoulder junction to .3442" at the case mouth with a +.002", -.000" tolerance. This means that the shoulder junction can be between .3462" and .3482" and the mouth can be between .3442" and .3462". Without taking a casting of the chamber or having some high end measuring equipment, it would be difficult to determine exactly what you have within this range.
I agree with Longtrain that it shouldn't matter since it doesn't effect the case capacity, shoulder angle, etc.
Just looked up the CIP spec. They list the neck diameter as 8.74mm (.3441") with a +.02mm (.001") tolerance so it allows for a maximum .345" neck.
I remember winning and complaining about this very rule in 2010 before the world Championships in Australia. I had to buy a new reamer ( the 308 gamboa Reamer later marked Palma 2011) I didn't want to shoot the huge .3445 neck on that reamer. It had to be done so that I wouldn't travel all the way to Australia only to be illegal. I had thought for sure I would be giving up some accuracy.... Well it turns out that was NOT the case as that big ass neck diam means NOTHING and Since I have been running it have been shooting lights out. 1/4MOA groups at 600 are not out of the norm. Plus I watched Kent Reeve shoot a 15 shot group at Canada this year at 800Meters that you could cover with damn coffee cup during the America's match.
So I have to ask... does it matter really? I believe you can still skim your necks and not be at any loss what so ever. Im just basing this off actual shooting but your internet experience may vary. Ha!
I had my ammo inspected at the Fullbore Nationals this last year at Camp Perry. They came to me and asked for a round and where gone for a few hours and then they brought it back. I have no idea what they did as I was too busy shooting and not worrying about some silly compliance issue. If you have to worry about it... How many points is that worth?
Sorry to jump in here, I know Im not an FTR shooter.. Best of luck to you all.
Russ T
So I have to ask... does it matter really? I believe you can still skim your necks and not be at any loss what so ever. Im just basing this off actual shooting but your internet experience may vary. Ha!
I had my ammo inspected at the Fullbore Nationals this last year at Camp Perry. They came to me and asked for a round and where gone for a few hours and then they brought it back. I have no idea what they did as I was too busy shooting and not worrying about some silly compliance issue. If you have to worry about it... How many points is that worth?
Sorry to jump in here, I know Im not an FTR shooter.. Best of luck to you all.
Russ T
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
Rtheurer said:
Maybe, maybe not, I run all my prone rifles tight. My runout is usually less then .001, my brass lasts a long time. IMO the bullet is getting a straight and correct start on its trip to the target. Of course, quality actions and gunsmithing are part of that equation. Basically, I'm not doing anything that will give me a ballistic advantage over my competition, based on what a 308 can do. What I'm doing is building the best, most accurate cartridge within the parameters of the capacity of a 308 Winchester.
Been shooting a larger SAAMI chamber for all the 3 years with the 308.
The larger neck has not been a negative. In fact, I consider it a positive. Even with rain, never had a issue with bullet release.
Recently, a mistake created an opportunity to test. I turned some necks "undersized" at 12 thou. Oh well, shoot them and see what happens.
WOW... accuracy improved dramatically. I now turn all my necks to 11.5thou, max 12 thou
Haven't seen a split neck in 1.5 yrs of shooting and thousands of rds.
I do anneal on my Bench Source and using tough PRVI brass BUT....
So put away the fears of a larger neck chamber. I doubt you will see any problems and might just see some improvements.
Also consider that the bullet has already left the neck BEFORE it expands to 0.309"....
Jerry
The larger neck has not been a negative. In fact, I consider it a positive. Even with rain, never had a issue with bullet release.
Recently, a mistake created an opportunity to test. I turned some necks "undersized" at 12 thou. Oh well, shoot them and see what happens.
WOW... accuracy improved dramatically. I now turn all my necks to 11.5thou, max 12 thou
Haven't seen a split neck in 1.5 yrs of shooting and thousands of rds.
I do anneal on my Bench Source and using tough PRVI brass BUT....
So put away the fears of a larger neck chamber. I doubt you will see any problems and might just see some improvements.
Also consider that the bullet has already left the neck BEFORE it expands to 0.309"....
Jerry
Rtheurer said:
The above is pretty much spot on!!
I have used a Gamboa chamber since beginning LR shooting a few years back and now shoot with the 2011 Fullbore reamer that the U.S. National Team specified for everyone. The neck size just is not critical to accuracy, as the neck is only sized on the top 2/3's anyways. The lower 1/3 is never touched, so it centers the front half of the brass in the chamber quite well. As far as brass life goes, my Winchester cases (1,200 pieces) have gone 15-18 firings with zero failures, before being left in South Africa on two different occasions. Though they did get annealed every 4+- firings.
I have had my loaded ammo checked at two different world championships, with no issues. They did not ask for any fired brass though. In the U.S. we are pretty complacent about nit-picking the rules. In my experience, that is not true elsewhere.
Lane
I'll add my opinion to this and the others. I acquired a load of very light / thin 1980s Norma brass many years back whose necks ran between 0.0125 and 0.135". After a bit of a clean-up turn, some of my batches are down at the 0.012" level or even marginally below. Used in a 'minimum SAAMI' chamber, their performance has been excellent, and I preferred them to thicker neck / less clearance Lapua, until Palma brass appeared at any rate.
The downsides are having to buy (yet more) die bushings and the extra working of the necks. Now that annealing has become almost the norm, that's not the issue it once was. Even without annealing, it was primer pocket expansion that determined case life and I've still around half of my original lot in use about to be recycled to an ex-TR rifle adapted to FTR whose chamber will likely be a bit larger still.
I've been shooting FTR (east coast USA only) for about 2.5 - 3 years. My first FTR rifle was barreled by Krieger with an Obermeyer chamber, which someone above pointed out isn't SAAMI. I just had it rebarreled and asked for a .342" neck FTR chamber. I did so owing to what, to me, seemed to be a reasonable accommodation: I had decided to start neck turning, and in order to get a decent amount of circumferential trim to uniform the neck wall, I noted that the neck diameter of neck turned brass was in the range of .332" (Norma) to .336" (Lapua Palma). I did some neck turning before deciding on the chamber for the rebarrel, as I knew that this additional information would influence my chambering decision.
Turning necks is probably considered standard by top shooters (not one of those yet myself, but I am working on it), so neck diameter considerations are probably not limited to myself. Factory brass is what it is, and neck wall thicknesses are not uniform. This being a shooting sport, it is reasonable to expect people to pursue improvements that enhance accuracy. Neck turning is one of those.
What was I after? Accuracy and case life. I believed I had read enough competition boards to satisfy myself that there was no rules issue with a .342" chamber with enough freebore to shoot heavies. I didn't really expect the 'tight neck' effect on accuracy to be significant, but I did (and still do) expect some increase in case life. And that matters to me: this is an expensive and very time consuming sport.
I have as yet no experience with the life expectancy of turned-neck cases, but I can tell you that I am hoping for long life, as replacing them would be an unwelcome expense, both in time and money. Annealing is also a pain in the rear, time consuming and another significant expense if you buy an annealing machine (which i have not, I do it with a drill and a torch). It seemed self-evident that minimizing neck working would help prolong case life.
I am stretching a bit, both in finances and time, to compete in this sport. This is my problem, not anyone else's. FWIW, I can tell you if the remotest possibility exists of my traveling some long distance to shoot in a match, only to have someone reject my rifle from use owing to a few thou of neck diameter, that will absolutely prevent me from the time and expense of traveling to that match.
Perhaps a bit of formal rules clarification is in order?
Turning necks is probably considered standard by top shooters (not one of those yet myself, but I am working on it), so neck diameter considerations are probably not limited to myself. Factory brass is what it is, and neck wall thicknesses are not uniform. This being a shooting sport, it is reasonable to expect people to pursue improvements that enhance accuracy. Neck turning is one of those.
What was I after? Accuracy and case life. I believed I had read enough competition boards to satisfy myself that there was no rules issue with a .342" chamber with enough freebore to shoot heavies. I didn't really expect the 'tight neck' effect on accuracy to be significant, but I did (and still do) expect some increase in case life. And that matters to me: this is an expensive and very time consuming sport.
I have as yet no experience with the life expectancy of turned-neck cases, but I can tell you that I am hoping for long life, as replacing them would be an unwelcome expense, both in time and money. Annealing is also a pain in the rear, time consuming and another significant expense if you buy an annealing machine (which i have not, I do it with a drill and a torch). It seemed self-evident that minimizing neck working would help prolong case life.
I am stretching a bit, both in finances and time, to compete in this sport. This is my problem, not anyone else's. FWIW, I can tell you if the remotest possibility exists of my traveling some long distance to shoot in a match, only to have someone reject my rifle from use owing to a few thou of neck diameter, that will absolutely prevent me from the time and expense of traveling to that match.
Perhaps a bit of formal rules clarification is in order?
As far as ICFRA matches and the 2017 FCWC that will be hosted by the Canadians any rule changes or intreperations of curent rules will be done well in advance and there will be no surprises. That is why we have spent months talking about this. What the US NRA will or will not do with their rule is completely separate matter.
Sorry for jumping into this thread so late, but I thought I might be able to add some value as part of the organizing committee for the 2017 FCWC.
When we first discussed how to ensure that competitors were respecting the required SAAMI specifications for F-TR (and 308 specifically) for the 2017 FCWC it occurred to us that since the rule did not specifically state "maximum SAAMI" that both max and min dimensions needed to be respected. We came up with a strategy on how to measure this, with what we felt were reasonable tolerances so as to provide a little wiggle room (for spring back, etc), and we subsequently put our plan forward to the ICFRA F-Class committee for review. Their reaction was very similar to what I've read on this thread; many felt it to be unnecessarily harsh, while others understood and agreed with what we were trying to do. What came out of the discussion was that overwhelmingly shooters didn't feel that having a tighter neck provided a definite accuracy advantage, and therefore the enforcement of the rule as we interpreted it would serve only to make a bunch of previously legal barrels and reamers illegal, and create unneeded hardships for shooters.
We have since gone back to ICFRA and asked that the rule be amended to limit to max SAAMI dimensions, with the exception of headspace, where the minimum must be respected. This was done to ensure that nobody tried improving the shoulder on a cartridge that would still fit into a max chamber gauge.
Due to the time frames associated with ICFRA making rule changes we will likely have an answer within the next month or so, but at this point the DCRA is planning on testing for maximum chamber dimensions and for minimum headspace. This will ensure that all the 308s on the line in Ottawa are actually 308s and that the playing field is level for everyone. The methodology and tools to be used (or the reamer prints to make them) will be made available ASAP so nobody gets surprised when they get to Ottawa.
If you've got any questions about this or anything else related to the 2017 FCWC or any shoots in Ottawa between now and then please let me know, and I look forward to welcoming you to Connaught in August 2017!
All the best,
Scott
When we first discussed how to ensure that competitors were respecting the required SAAMI specifications for F-TR (and 308 specifically) for the 2017 FCWC it occurred to us that since the rule did not specifically state "maximum SAAMI" that both max and min dimensions needed to be respected. We came up with a strategy on how to measure this, with what we felt were reasonable tolerances so as to provide a little wiggle room (for spring back, etc), and we subsequently put our plan forward to the ICFRA F-Class committee for review. Their reaction was very similar to what I've read on this thread; many felt it to be unnecessarily harsh, while others understood and agreed with what we were trying to do. What came out of the discussion was that overwhelmingly shooters didn't feel that having a tighter neck provided a definite accuracy advantage, and therefore the enforcement of the rule as we interpreted it would serve only to make a bunch of previously legal barrels and reamers illegal, and create unneeded hardships for shooters.
We have since gone back to ICFRA and asked that the rule be amended to limit to max SAAMI dimensions, with the exception of headspace, where the minimum must be respected. This was done to ensure that nobody tried improving the shoulder on a cartridge that would still fit into a max chamber gauge.
Due to the time frames associated with ICFRA making rule changes we will likely have an answer within the next month or so, but at this point the DCRA is planning on testing for maximum chamber dimensions and for minimum headspace. This will ensure that all the 308s on the line in Ottawa are actually 308s and that the playing field is level for everyone. The methodology and tools to be used (or the reamer prints to make them) will be made available ASAP so nobody gets surprised when they get to Ottawa.
If you've got any questions about this or anything else related to the 2017 FCWC or any shoots in Ottawa between now and then please let me know, and I look forward to welcoming you to Connaught in August 2017!
All the best,
Scott
ScottyB said:
Do you mean that when checking headspace you would use standard SAAMI go and no go gauges.
A go gauge would have the bolt close but the no go will not? Standard PLUS is 4 thou for the no go gauge
Then you would have another "fat" gauge set to SAAMI max body dimensions plus a schnick. If that goes into the chamber, then the chamber is considered illegal.
But for a SAAMI spec chamber, the gauge will basically stop say 3/4 of the way into the chamber?
I think many shooters could find this easier to visualise and certainly these gauges can be readily available.
Jerry
Jerry, there are a HUGE number of posts on many forums about this issue and many relate to in depth discussions in ICFRA committees etc. The one thing that nobody wants is to start playing with gauges on people's rifles on or behind the firing line. An oversize gauge can (almost certainly would) end up stuck in somebody's legal chamber.
This is done in the UK at some major TR matches with a minimum SAAMI type inert round to check on UK NRA Rule 150 which is there to specifically check on too-tight chamber necks which can see insufficient safe clearance with the issued ammunition that is used in some major matches. (This was in response to a mjaor safety issue many years ago in the days of all significant matches using issued milspec 7.62 NATO rounds and some max or even slightly over max neck O/D rounds leaving no clearance at all where the gunsmith had gone a little tight in his reamer spec.)
Since the FTR rules are all about avoiding an unfair competitive advantage being obtained from an 'Improved' 308 case, it's a simple matter to have a fired case gauge that checks the body dimensions of a randomly selected fired case from the competitor's ammo box. Well, maybe 'simple matter', as nothing seems to be really simple in this issue. Checking chamber neck diameters as per the UK Rule 150 kicks over all sorts of cans of worms which as can be seen from earlier posts, nobody amongst the sport's regulators wish to do.
This is done in the UK at some major TR matches with a minimum SAAMI type inert round to check on UK NRA Rule 150 which is there to specifically check on too-tight chamber necks which can see insufficient safe clearance with the issued ammunition that is used in some major matches. (This was in response to a mjaor safety issue many years ago in the days of all significant matches using issued milspec 7.62 NATO rounds and some max or even slightly over max neck O/D rounds leaving no clearance at all where the gunsmith had gone a little tight in his reamer spec.)
Since the FTR rules are all about avoiding an unfair competitive advantage being obtained from an 'Improved' 308 case, it's a simple matter to have a fired case gauge that checks the body dimensions of a randomly selected fired case from the competitor's ammo box. Well, maybe 'simple matter', as nothing seems to be really simple in this issue. Checking chamber neck diameters as per the UK Rule 150 kicks over all sorts of cans of worms which as can be seen from earlier posts, nobody amongst the sport's regulators wish to do.
Laurie, understood as some may be concerned about the gauge. If you are checking the case and ammo, then it has to be random that the referee does without shooter intervention.
What is to stop a shooter from having "gauge safe" cases and ammo in each box if they want to game the sport?
Personally, I have no issue with a ref chambering proper gauges in my rifle. That can be done at weigh in on a random basis or whatever. I never read all the past posts of concerned shooters but that is how my gun was built so I doubt another gauge is going to hurt anything.
The oversized gauge can be made from a polymer and simply finger inserted. When it stops, a finger nail just flicks it out. It doesn't need to be chambered with the bolt thus cases of getting stuck are low.
It really isn't that big an operation.
But let's see what gets sorted out with ICFRA.
Jerry
What is to stop a shooter from having "gauge safe" cases and ammo in each box if they want to game the sport?
Personally, I have no issue with a ref chambering proper gauges in my rifle. That can be done at weigh in on a random basis or whatever. I never read all the past posts of concerned shooters but that is how my gun was built so I doubt another gauge is going to hurt anything.
The oversized gauge can be made from a polymer and simply finger inserted. When it stops, a finger nail just flicks it out. It doesn't need to be chambered with the bolt thus cases of getting stuck are low.
It really isn't that big an operation.
But let's see what gets sorted out with ICFRA.
Jerry
Laurie,
You pretty much hit the nail on the head; we want to keep the verification process as simple, transparent, and non-intrusive as possible. In discussions with the ICFRA member countries, and from shooters on forums like this it became exceedingly clear that aside from safety the biggest concern was with people gaining an advantage in powder capacity. One could reasonably argue that the simple remedy to that would be a max SAAMI case gauge like those made by Wilson to examine fired brass on the line; drop in the case if it fits then you're good, if not then we need to investigate further. The one issue that came up almost immediately from those who are FAR more technically astute than I was that there would be potential for wildcatting the 308 in a bunch of different ways that would still allow it to fit into a max case gauge, but would likely yield significant performance advantages.
As organizers we will be working with the ICFRA F-Class committee to determine what the appropriate checks would be, when they should be done, and whether to check everyone, just the winners, or a combination thereof. Right now our thinking is that a drop in style case gauge done with a max SAAMI reamer will suffice for the chamber dimension, and that a minimum headspace insert will help to dissuade anyone from becoming too creative on shoulder angles, etc.
As things develop they will be shared here, and we will ensure that the drawings for any tools we intend to use to measure will be made publicly available for those who may chose to reproduce them.
Cheers,
Scott
You pretty much hit the nail on the head; we want to keep the verification process as simple, transparent, and non-intrusive as possible. In discussions with the ICFRA member countries, and from shooters on forums like this it became exceedingly clear that aside from safety the biggest concern was with people gaining an advantage in powder capacity. One could reasonably argue that the simple remedy to that would be a max SAAMI case gauge like those made by Wilson to examine fired brass on the line; drop in the case if it fits then you're good, if not then we need to investigate further. The one issue that came up almost immediately from those who are FAR more technically astute than I was that there would be potential for wildcatting the 308 in a bunch of different ways that would still allow it to fit into a max case gauge, but would likely yield significant performance advantages.
As organizers we will be working with the ICFRA F-Class committee to determine what the appropriate checks would be, when they should be done, and whether to check everyone, just the winners, or a combination thereof. Right now our thinking is that a drop in style case gauge done with a max SAAMI reamer will suffice for the chamber dimension, and that a minimum headspace insert will help to dissuade anyone from becoming too creative on shoulder angles, etc.
As things develop they will be shared here, and we will ensure that the drawings for any tools we intend to use to measure will be made publicly available for those who may chose to reproduce them.
Cheers,
Scott
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