This Rifle won't Shoot! Diagnosing the issue(s).

[AlNyhus]

I've been thinking about your comment.
The guy that sent me the rifle ended up sending some fired brass to me, I just got it today. And it's older Remington, probably shot 20 years ago, so it's oxidized. That made me notice something. Here's a couple photos of the rim of the necks on that old RP brass, there's dents and shiny areas.

View attachment 1680936
View attachment 1680937

And here's the tops of some brass I made, and shot today, same scarring, dents, shiny spots

View attachment 1680938

So, I'm wondering if the neck cut in the chamber has some material that is hitting the rims of the necks, leaving these marks? And, if so, I would think that would impact the accuracy.

Might trimming the brass, to bring clearance to these obstructions, be the right move? Or what?

My first post on this thread (post #50) reads:

"Before you grind, Dremel, file, sand, chisel or do anything...check your neck clearance and chamber length."

The flat spot on the mouth of the case necks can happen when as the bolt is pulled back, the pressure from the ejector slaps the case neck first against the side of the chamber and then against the side of the receiver.

The shiny spots on the end of the case moutn may or may not be an indicator of the necks bottoming out against the end of the neck area of the chamber.

You have to check this stuff......

 

[TheCZKid]

My first post on this thread (post #50) reads:

"Before you grind, Dremel, file, sand, chisel or do anything...check your neck clearance and chamber length."

The flat spot on the mouth of the case necks can happen when as the bolt is pulled back, the pressure from the ejector slaps the case neck first against the side of the chamber and then against the side of the receiver.

The shiny spots on the end of the case moutn may or may not be an indicator of the necks bottoming out against the end of the neck area of the chamber.

You have to check this stuff......

Yes, I'm learning this stuff, that's the reason I started this thread, to find out what to check......

It's probably the ejector pushing the case mouth, and it's a very strong ejector I must add. If I don't catch the brass as I go to eject it, it will fly off the table. I think I'll remove it, as it's a single feed action anyways, and I can just remove the brass by hand as I shoot....

 

[jelenko]

Yes, I'm learning this stuff, that's the reason I started this thread, to find out what to check......

It's probably the ejector pushing the case mouth, and it's a very strong ejector I must add. If I don't catch the brass as I go to eject it, it will fly off the table. I think I'll remove it, as it's a single feed action anyways, and I can just remove the brass by hand as I shoot....

But, have you checked the chamber length? Neck clearance?
Talking about it is not checking.

 

[ELR LVR]

I'm actually learning from this process. It's the first XP-100 action I've dealt with, and my only other Remington is an early 700 hunting rifle in 30-06. This is the most trouble I've had with a rifle, and it's because it's used, and I don't know what's wrong.

I talked to the owner on the phone, a member here on AS. He sent me photos, and I had the details, so I sent him my money. But, he actually passed away before he shipped it, and his friend stepped in for his widow, and sent it, a few weeks after I paid for it, so it's been problematic for a while now.

I have learned how to make 17M4 brass from Lake City, like I do for my 20 Vartarg, but with even more difficulty involved. Learned how to remove the firing pin and ejector, to find the lands.

So, it's just frustrating it has some sort of major problem causing it to shoot erratic, and hopefully I'll be able to get that solved, with help from my gunsmith, or a buddy close by, but it's not a total loss. It's been interesting to have this thread, and get a lot of comments, most are good and people here are helpful, a nice community of fellow shooters.

Worst case scenario, a new 9 twist Krieger will fix everything.
No need to sell it off

 

[ELR LVR]

Yes, I'm learning this stuff, that's the reason I started this thread, to find out what to check......

It's probably the ejector pushing the case mouth, and it's a very strong ejector I must add. If I don't catch the brass as I go to eject it, it will fly off the table. I think I'll remove it, as it's a single feed action anyways, and I can just remove the brass by hand as I shoot....

You can cut a coil from the ejector spring to remedy that.
Most of my Rem 700's fling them right into the ammo box laying next to me now instead of the next county

 

[TheCZKid]

But, have you checked the chamber length? Neck clearance?
Talking about it is not checking.

I have fired a LOT of ammo through this rifle, so I know the chamber length based on the dimensions of the fired brass.

Which dimension specifically are you meaning by "chamber length"? Base to shoulder, base to shoulder / neck junction? Overall case length? Please be specific, as I'm not sure what you're asking.

And, I have put my brass into the chamber, with no firing pin or ejector, and the bolt had no resistance when closing. Not sure what you're meaning, to check as far as chamber length. It matches up to reamer drawings in dimensions. I don't have a chamber cast, so all I've got to go by is fired brass.

Measuring my Fired Cases, the base to shoulder does appear to be at the 1.0646" dimension
And, from base to neck/shoulder junction, appears to be at the 1.2053" mark as well.
My brass is trimmed to 1.400" and the reamer shows the cut would be at 1.432" which is really long, but that would explain why I can't seem to get my bullets to hit the lands.

 

[TheCZKid]

You can cut a coil from the ejector spring to remedy that.
Most of my Rem 700's fling them right into the ammo box laying next to me now instead of the next county

I was thinking I could grind off a bit of the spring, and then try it, see when it seems reasonable, as far as pressure. Right now it's super high, so I appreciate the suggestion!

 

[TheCZKid]

Worst case scenario, a new 9 twist Krieger will fix everything.
No need to sell it off

I've got lots of brass in the process of being made, and a lot of bullets for this rifle, a barrel which would shoot 20 and 25 grain bullets well would be wonderful at this point!

I'm planning on bringing the gun to my gunsmith, hopefully this afternoon (if he's around) and ask him to look at the inside of the barrel, and at the current bedding, etc, I assume he'll see things I can't, check things I don't know to check, and so on. I'm kinda done with figuring it out. I did order a new firing pin spring, in case this one is just worn out after about 35 years. Might make a difference.

 

[Kevin1990]

I have fired a LOT of ammo through this rifle, so I know the chamber length based on the dimensions of the fired brass.

Which dimension specifically are you meaning by "chamber length"? Base to shoulder, base to shoulder / neck junction? Overall case length? Please be specific, as I'm not sure what you're asking.

And, I have put my brass into the chamber, with no firing pin or ejector, and the bolt had no resistance when closing. Not sure what you're meaning, to check as far as chamber length. It matches up to reamer drawings in dimensions. I don't have a chamber cast, so all I've got to go by is fired brass.

Measuring my Fired Cases, the base to shoulder does appear to be at the 1.0646" dimension
And, from base to neck/shoulder junction, appears to be at the 1.2053" mark as well.
My brass is trimmed to 1.400" and the reamer shows the cut would be at 1.432" which is really long, but that would explain why I can't seem to get my bullets to hit the lands.

View attachment 1681135

No offense but you're all over the place. People are telling you what to do, and you state that you don't know how to measure chamber length, and the next sentence you say that you know the chamber length based on the fired brass. Doing it that way is surely asking for trouble. Also where did the reamer print come from, isn't this gun like 35 years old? Have you figured out the neck clearance? Again, no offense, but why even ask questions if you take no ones advice?

 

[Todd Earhart]

I've been following this loosely and am anxious to see you find a solution. You said earlier that you have a bore scope but not small enough for 17 caliber. I think you said 20 caliber and up. Have you used what you have to look at what you can? What you have would tell me almost all I need to know. You would be able to look at lead angle and wear. Also any odd neck issues.
Todd

 

[TheCZKid]

No offense but you're all over the place. People are telling you what to do, and you state that you don't know how to measure chamber length, and the next sentence you say that you know the chamber length based on the fired brass. Doing it that way is surely asking for trouble. Also where did the reamer print come from, isn't this gun like 35 years old? Have you figured out the neck clearance? Again, no offense, but why even ask questions if you take no ones advice?

No offense, but I'm listening to their advice, and trying to do the work to follow up.

When someone asks me if I have "checked the chamber length" and I ask "what do you mean exactly" I'm trying to follow up on taking their advice, but need to have clarification. Not sure how you misconstrued that.

The reamer print came from Google searches. It's the best guess I have as to what a reamer for this rifle chamber would be as far as dimensions, it's a reference point.

I don't have access to the actual reamer or who made it, nor the specs, nor a chamber cast. However, based on my fired brass, it seems to be really close to what that drawing shows.

You got a better suggestion on how to take dimensions on a chamber on a barrel that is currently still in the action of the gun, let me know "How to" sir.

Are you willing to offer some actual advice, you want be constructive? Or are you just wanting to be a critic of this post?

 

[TheCZKid]

I've been following this loosely and am anxious to see you find a solution. You said earlier that you have a bore scope but not small enough for 17 caliber. I think you said 20 caliber and up. Have you used what you have to look at what you can? What you have would tell me almost all I need to know. You would be able to look at lead angle and wear. Also any odd neck issues.
Todd

Unfortunately, the only thing I can see through the borescope, with the 90 degree mirror, is the chamber up to the neck area. Past that, I can look forward, and it's all quite out of focus, and of no practical value.

 

[Clancy]

Well if it wasn’t shot out before this test, it is now.

Move it for parts.

 

[jelenko]

No offense, but I'm listening to their advice, and trying to do the work to follow up.

When someone asks me if I have "checked the chamber length" and I ask "what do you mean exactly" I'm trying to follow up on taking their advice, but need to have clarification. Not sure how you misconstrued that.

The reamer print came from Google searches. It's the best guess I have as to what a reamer for this rifle chamber would be as far as dimensions, it's a reference point.

I don't have access to the actual reamer or who made it, nor the specs, nor a chamber cast. However, based on my fired brass, it seems to be really close to what that drawing shows.

You got a better suggestion on how to take dimensions on a chamber on a barrel that is currently still in the action of the gun, let me know "How to" sir.

Are you willing to offer some actual advice, you want be constructive? Or are you just wanting to be a critic of this post?

If you can't/don't know how [which is completely reasonable], take the rifle to someone who can.

Maybe one of the gunsmiths on this forum would be able to check out the rifle for you.

That said, it's going to cost something [maybe not cheap].

 

[1911nut]

No offense, but I'm listening to their advice, and trying to do the work to follow up.

When someone asks me if I have "checked the chamber length" and I ask "what do you mean exactly" I'm trying to follow up on taking their advice, but need to have clarification. Not sure how you misconstrued that.

The reamer print came from Google searches. It's the best guess I have as to what a reamer for this rifle chamber would be as far as dimensions, it's a reference point.

I don't have access to the actual reamer or who made it, nor the specs, nor a chamber cast. However, based on my fired brass, it seems to be really close to what that drawing shows.

You got a better suggestion on how to take dimensions on a chamber on a barrel that is currently still in the action of the gun, let me know "How to" sir.

Are you willing to offer some actual advice, you want be constructive? Or are you just wanting to be a critic of this post?

I’ve used these to determine chamber length:

SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL Sinclair Chamber Length Gage

Check out SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL Sinclair Chamber Length Gage available Online at Brownells Today and many more Case Length Gauges products are available in our Reloading Department.

www.brownells.com

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

This will only cost you a case. Daily bulletin

 

[Mike in Oregon]

As we discussed Friday and now that you have shot the short base Nosler's, it's time for another set of eyes on it. Take all notes and targets to Randy for a second opinion. then consider your options buddy!

 

[TheCZKid]

As we discussed Friday and now that you have shot the short base Nosler's, it's time for another set of eyes on it. Take all notes and targets to Randy for a second opinion. then consider your options buddy!

Totally agree... Just got back from dropping the rifle off at Randy the gunsmiths place, nice guy!

Brought him the target from yesterday, some fired brass, load data on what I've already tried, and 15 loaded rounds for him to use in testing. Unfortunately, Randy's borescope only goes down to 22 caliber, and mine only 20, so no joy on seeing the bore or throat area, bummer.

He's going to use one my my fired cases, and make a modified case, for use with a Hornady bullet seating gizmo, so I can use it with my other bullets as well.

 

[ArtinNC]

I have fired a LOT of ammo through this rifle, so I know the chamber length based on the dimensions of the fired brass.

Which dimension specifically are you meaning by "chamber length"? Base to shoulder, base to shoulder / neck junction? Overall case length? Please be specific, as I'm not sure what you're asking.

And, I have put my brass into the chamber, with no firing pin or ejector, and the bolt had no resistance when closing. Not sure what you're meaning, to check as far as chamber length. It matches up to reamer drawings in dimensions. I don't have a chamber cast, so all I've got to go by is fired brass.

Measuring my Fired Cases, the base to shoulder does appear to be at the 1.0646" dimension
And, from base to neck/shoulder junction, appears to be at the 1.2053" mark as well.
My brass is trimmed to 1.400" and the reamer shows the cut would be at 1.432" which is really long, but that would explain why I can't seem to get my bullets to hit the lands.

View attachment 1681135

((((((( My brass is trimmed to 1.400" and the reamer shows the cut would be at 1.432" which is really long, but that would explain why I can't seem to get my bullets to hit the lands.))))))))

1.432 is pretty long with a 1* lead . I have a 222 with zero free bore and a1-30* lead and to get the bullet into the lands the bullet is all most out of the case . AND the measurements on a dwg means NOTHING , PT&G ground my reamer with the neck .051 to long . If the reamer is not to dwg specs and the chamber job was not to specs you could have a problem hitting the lands . But that is not the cause of the large groups you are having .

 

[TheCZKid]

((((((( My brass is trimmed to 1.400" and the reamer shows the cut would be at 1.432" which is really long, but that would explain why I can't seem to get my bullets to hit the lands.))))))))

1.432 is pretty long with a 1* lead . I have a 222 with zero free bore and a1-30* lead and to get the bullet into the lands the bullet is all most out of the case . AND the measurements on a dwg means NOTHING , PT&G ground my reamer with the neck .051 to long . If the reamer is not to dwg specs and the chamber job was not to specs you could have a problem hitting the lands . But that is not the cause of the large groups you are having .

Hopefully the gunsmith will answer all these questions soon.

To try to find where the lands were, I removed the firing pin and ejector, and seated one of the Nosler bullets quite far out in an empty case. It was further out than would be safe to load, just as a starting point. I figured I'd have it hit the lands, and I'd slowly seat it back a little bit, until I find where the bolt just closes. But, it didn't touch the lands at all. So it must have a long freebore.

To run my test loads I seated the bullet where it was in the neck about the same amount as the diameter of the bullet, and that ended up being slightly over Nosler's suggested seating depth of 1.780". The gunsmith is going to make a modified case, and see where the lands are, then we'll know.