The whats what on groups

[Beiruty]

No rifle will do that. Even the best rifle will shoot big groups if you take it out of tune.

Brand new rifle using a generic load, shots 2-3-4 from a custom 300PRC rifle, built by Vestals Custom rifles
No load development whatsoever

 

[Beiruty]

 

[Beiruty]

Rifle

 

[jelenko]

No rifle will do that. Even the best rifle will shoot big groups if you take it out of tune.

That also has been my experience. But, I've seen the claim on Accurate Shooter a couple times.

Thanks!

ETA. Does Beiruty's post demonstrate it's possible?

 

[Beiruty]

After zero, I aimed at first impact #1 and I shot 2 more rounds, #8 and #9
5-6-7 group is by another shooter

 

[jelenko]

Rifle
View attachment 1351246

So, would any generic load be less than 1/2 MOA, 5 shot group?

 

[wkdickinson]

I think you’re both right.

Brian is looking at what it takes to get statistical certainly, considering only statistics.

In load development, we know great loads are developed with high (not perfect) certainty using many fewer shots. We also know that there is value in saving barrel life, components, and that as a shooter we are less consistent over many shots due to fatigue and changing conditions. I know Brian is not immune to these things and it would be interesting to hear his thoughts on this.

Really, getting statistical certainty is not practical except in testing rimfire in a tunnel with a large budget.

When I did my 6 Sigma training, the Master Black Belt who taught the statistics section of the course, had a favorite saying - "statistics allows you to never have to say "I'm sure".

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Brand new rifle using a generic load, shots 2-3-4 from a custom 300PRC rifle, built by Vestals Custom rifles
No load development whatsoever
View attachment 1351242

Sure, you can get lucky on a load. But the rifle will shoot big if you take it out of tune. Pull or ad a grain of powder. That should do it.

 

[Beiruty]

Sure, you can get lucky on a load. But the rifle will shoot big if you take it out of tune. Pull or ad a grain of powder. That should do it.

It is very possible it is the case. However, if you are shooting say 22 PPC bullet from 24 lbs benchrest rifle with very heavy barrel the consistency of the load round to round is way more important than tuning to the node.

Have you heard about the secrets of the Houston warehouse?

Note in the linked article powder charge did not matter at all.

Some more readings

Secrets of the Houston Warehouse – Lessons In Extreme Rifle Accuracy

Back in 1993, Precision Shooting Magazine printed a landmark article about the findings of a group o...

precisionrifleblog.com

 

[Doom]

Brian appears to be making the point that that group size for any rifle and shooter varies with each group and that on average that standard deviation is 30% of the average. Based on his experience I’ll take that as a general observation. His ultimate point is that regardless of the accuracy of the rifle and shooter the group sizes will vary and to make decisions based on group size from one or two groups should recognize that the difference may or may not reflect a true difference in accuracy or precision.

 

[jelenko]

Brian appears to be making the point that that group size for any rifle and shooter varies with each group and that on average that standard deviation is 30% of the average. Based on his experience I’ll take that as a general observation. His ultimate point is that regardless of the accuracy of the rifle and shooter the group sizes will vary and to make decisions based on group size from one or two groups should recognize that the difference may or may not reflect a true difference in accuracy or precision.

Exactly.
At the same time, as mentioned, experienced shooters can use relatively few shots to find a node. But, these are two different 'statements'.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

It is very possible it is the case. However, if you are shooting say 22 PPC bullet from 24 lbs benchrest rifle with very heavy barrel the consistency of the load round to round is way more important than tuning to the node.

Have you heard about the secrets of the Houston warehouse?

Note in the linked article powder charge did not matter at all.

Some more readings

Secrets of the Houston Warehouse – Lessons In Extreme Rifle Accuracy

Back in 1993, Precision Shooting Magazine printed a landmark article about the findings of a group o...

precisionrifleblog.com

Dont put too much faith in that. It has been widely disputed by the people that were there. Some shot real good when nobody else was there, late at night. I can always tell if a customer read that story when they tell me how long to make their barrel, not how much it should weigh. The main question is what does that warehouse story have to do with statistics on these world championship winning guns shooting good groups all day every day (if you do your part)? Take your gun out and do an honest 5 or 10 group run of 5 each and see how it aggs out. You dont even have to report back its just for your info.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

It is very possible it is the case. However, if you are shooting say 22 PPC bullet from 24 lbs benchrest rifle with very heavy barrel the consistency of the load round to round is way more important than tuning to the node.

Have you heard about the secrets of the Houston warehouse?

Note in the linked article powder charge did not matter at all.

Some more readings

Secrets of the Houston Warehouse – Lessons In Extreme Rifle Accuracy

Back in 1993, Precision Shooting Magazine printed a landmark article about the findings of a group o...

precisionrifleblog.com

With all due respect thats not true. Tuning is by far the most important part of achieving an accurate load. I have read the article.

 

[CharlieNC]

What data set and test method(s) leads to this conclusion?

Basic fundamentals of stastics.

 

[Clancy]

After zero, I aimed at first impact #1 and I shot 2 more rounds, #8 and #9
5-6-7 group is by another shooter

View attachment 1351248

With respect, I don’t guess I see the point that you’re trying to make? You showed us a pretty good 3 shot group and then 5 bad shots. Are you agreeing with the original post, or?

 

[rwj]

Basic fundamentals of stastics.

… which requires a data set…

 

[Beiruty]

With respect, I don’t guess I see the point that you’re trying to make? You showed us a pretty good 3 shot group and then 5 bad shots. Are you agreeing with the original post, or?

I am happy with any sub 1/2 MOA rifle, if you think a brand new rifle shooting 1/2 MOA (a bad group) is sub par, please show us your targets!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I am happy with any sub 1/2 MOA rifle, if you think a brand new rifle shooting 1/2 MOA (a bad group) is sub par, please show us your targets!

Show us 10 in a row is what hes saying

 

[CA_Shooter]

Couldn't Litz' statement be validated using some benchrest match results?

 

[Clancy]

I am happy with any sub 1/2 MOA rifle, if you think a brand new rifle shooting 1/2 MOA (a bad group) is sub par, please show us your targets!