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The Seeing Contest

I wrote this in April 2012 and have learned more since then but I will copy here as I wrote it then. I have a picture of the rifle but do not yet know how to paste it here.

The Seeing Contest
(April 28, 2012)





I have shot an M14 in NRA High Power Rifle competition for the past 30 years and this year I do so as a Grand Senior. I still enjoy the sport, but not as much as I once did since it has become more of, what I would term, a “seeing contest,” rather than a shooting contest. The weaponry and ammo has become so advanced in the past ten to fifteen years that it has become all too clear to me that eyesight is now the greatest limiting factor to success. I was, for the past many years, determined to be the last man standing who was successfully shooting a .30 Caliber rifle (my interpretation of a “real” gun and a “real” cartridge). However, and alas, my hands remain all too sore from clapping for the winners at the awards ceremony who routinely exhibit near-perfect scores with more modern cartridges and rifle systems. My Grandmother once told me, “be not the first the new to try, …nor last the old to lay aside.” Well, with every passing year, as the rifles, cartridges and equipment become more and more advanced, I’m coming awful close to violating my Grandmother’s wise tenant on both counts. So, recently, in an attempt to restore the fun I once enjoyed from competitive High Power rifle shooting, I began a complete overhaul of my entire High Power rifle and ammo system in an attempt to take advantage of the most recent and modern advancements in the sport; investing what little remains of my retirement money before the Democrats take it all.
The goal of this project was to build a “modern” rifle for high power rifle competition that takes advantage of current technology and allows me to compete based on the most basic fundamentals of marksmanship rather than how well I can see the target and sights. I discussed this with Stacy, my Son, who is well-versed and up-to-speed with all these modern advancements and equipment options, and he agreed to help with this project. So we proceeded to design and build a “modern” AR15 rifle for High Power competition centered around the use of optics in lieu of iron sights. This turned out to be more difficult than I originally anticipated –the combination of “across the course” position and operational requirements supported by a scope. The most efficient design combination turns out to be an AR15 Match Rifle, with a fully adjustable buttstock and float tube, chambered in .223 REM, with a 20 inch “varmint” style barrel with a 6.5x20 variable powered Leupold scope mounted onto the gun’s upper with a quick-release type cantilevered mount. (See the above picture.) Jim Lane has dubbed this a “Scoped AR” or “SAR” for short.
Although I continue, with Stacy’s help, to refine the SAR design and “pet” load by which to feed it, I recently shot my first High Power match with the current configuration and had more fun during this recent competition, with this new rifle and ammo, than I have had in years shooting my M14. If you are not enjoying the sport as much as you once did, or have dropped out because it has become all too much of a “seeing contest,” then you may want to consider going with a SAR. It is a lot of fun and shooting well is always more fun with a group. If four or more SAR competitors could find themselves competing together, routinely, in future tournaments, then I’m sure we’d all soon experience our peers clapping for one of us at the awards ceremony along side the same ‘ole boring and routine list of, near-perfect award recipients; winning with extravagant laser-type rifles and 20/20 vision. The SAR provides the opportunity for “age, guile and wisdom” to overcome “youth, innocence and a bad haircut,” regardless of the awards schedule. If you would like details on what I have learned, the choice of components, load, etc., let me know and I will share.
 
Couldn't disagree more. Advancements in lenses, etc have made it easier to shoot with less-than-perfect vision than ever. Shooting an M1A will generally be much easier on the eyes than something like an AR15 A2 due to the increased sight radius. There have been some pretty amazing scores fired with M1A's over the years, though most shooting Service Rifle would rather shoot an AR these days for many reasons, not the least of which being that it's a better platform for the sport. But as always, skill, not eyesight, remains the greatest limiting factor to success.

Are you sure you haven't just been getting beat by better shooters?
 
I agree that shooting should be fun and enjoyable for the shooter. If its not don't do it. If others don't like your rifles/approach to shooting and matches its their problem. Shoot rifles and match types you enjoy. Nice read and good luck.
 
Erud said:
Couldn't disagree more. Advancements in lenses, etc have made it easier to shoot with less-than-perfect vision than ever. Shooting an M1A will generally be much easier on the eyes than something like an AR15 A2 due to the increased sight radius. There have been some pretty amazing scores fired with M1A's over the years, though most shooting Service Rifle would rather shoot an AR these days for many reasons, not the least of which being that it's a better platform for the sport. But as always, skill, not eyesight, remains the greatest limiting factor to success.

Are you sure you haven't just been getting beat by better shooters?

+1
 
T-Rex,

Am happy to see that you are still in the game. XC or prone, it doesn't matter as long as you are still having fun.

Am surprised that you went the optical path. With an AR based match rifle you could have gone the route of a longer barrel and lenses in both front and rear sights. In essence, you are allowed to use lenses to make adjustments so that you can see.

You are correct in the sense that with all the advancements in hardware, the last variable is the ability to see and as we get older, the physical challenge of sling shooting.

If you are still shooting XC, I congratulate you. Gave that up a few years ago, just too much work to hall all your gear to all those yard lines. It is hard enough to shoot Palma style matches and hall gear. Just getting old and lazy I guess. Plus it is much harder to compete with those who have young eyes and hard bodies. Not that it cannot be done, you just need the motivation and dedication to do it.

Now, I just shoot MR and LR prone matches with sling and Irons. Just can't seem to give up the challenge of holding the rifle up myself.

Bob

PS:
 
chefpierre said:
I agree that shooting should be fun and enjoyable for the shooter. If its not don't do it. If others don't like your rifles/approach to shooting and matches its their problem. Shoot rifles and match types you enjoy. Nice read and good luck.

Thanks for the positive response. I now have a lot of experience shooting this type of rifle and have figured out how to shoot XTC with a scope. I now have an upper with a 26 inch barrel which is fun to shoot in Mid Range matches. I still shoot the M14 and will as long as I am able but it has been fun trying something so different.
 
I need to figure out how to post a picture of this rifle. It looses something in the telling. The biggest challenge was getting the scope far enough forward on the AR to accommodate the shooting positions. I used a upper with an extended rail and an extended mount. Also I found a mount that allows me to quickly move the scope in the axial position for each of the shooting positions. Someone asked why not just uses the lenses in the iron sights. I found that Leupold makes a great "optical" sight.
 
T-Rex,
I share some of your experience. Many years ago I started shooting XTC with an M1A, but eventually began to struggle with declining scores and increased frustration. I tried a more modern approach with a bolt gun and a Warner/Riles 30 mmm setup, with some improvement, but felt that my eyesight continued to be a limiting factor. I still got beat by better shooters, but that's not the point or my main concern.

So, to make a long story sort, I tried F-Class and have enjoyed a new set of problems and challenges. For now, I'm keeping my coat and sling, but F-Class has proven to be a lot of fun and lowered my frustration level. Unfortunately, it has also dramatically decreased my bank account.

Best to you, sir, as you continue to embrace shooting.
 
Bob3700 said:
T-Rex,


Am surprised that you went the optical path. With an AR based match rifle you could have gone the route of a longer barrel and lenses in both front and rear sights. In essence, you are allowed to use lenses to make adjustments so that you can see.

Length adds weight which is getting to be a problem with age and not as well balanced in the positions as it is with the shorter barrel. But the gun is still heavy but I am able to shorten the stock and get it well balanced.]
 
T-Rex,

One fellow in our shooting group went from an M1A to a Tubb rifle. Those rifles are setup so well that they will fit anybody.

The bolt takes a bit to master but is so much better than a conventional bolt gun. The tube guns are a natural progression and modeled after the Tubb for sure.

Give that AR with optical sight a go. The scope makes it easier to see the target but no easier to shoot a good score.

Bob
 
Bob3700 said:
T-Rex,

One fellow in our shooting group went from an M1A to a Tubb rifle. Those rifles are setup so well that they will fit anybody.

The bolt takes a bit to master but is so much better than a conventional bolt gun. The tube guns are a natural progression and modeled after the Tubb for sure.

Give that AR with optical sight a go. The scope makes it easier to see the target but no easier to shoot a good score.

Bob

Life is too short to be working a bolt. I have an extended bolt release and do not take the rifle out of my shoulder or move my position at 600 yards slow fire. I can shoot the entire string, two sighters and twenty shots for record in about eight minutes. This minimizes the exposure to wind changes and gets the old body out of the heat before I give out on a hot day. If I keep them in the middle the guys in the pits like it but tell me sometimes they do not get the target fully up when they get another bullet hole. I think they are exaggerating but it make a great story. The AR is so much more accurate than the M14.
 
Buy the way, I name all my rifles and I call this one Infidel. Here are some of the specs. I did not include the load data or the size of the groups that I get with this rifle because.......


Infidel Project Parts List
(October 2012)

AR15 Receiver, Lower, Stripped [ArmaLite]
AR15 Receiver, Lower, Parts Kit [White Oak Armament]
AR15 Receiver, Upper, Side Charging w/picatinny rail [High Performance Intl. (HPI)]
Mike Bykowski (414-466-9040) mike@hpirifles.com
Buffer & Buttstock, Precision Adjustable [White Oak Armament]
Grip [Tubb]
Float Tube, 2 ¼ inch [White Oak Armament]
Barrel, 26” Length, 1:8 Twist, .223REM “Wylde” Chamber [White Oak Armament]
Bolt & Bolt Carrier Assembly [White Oak Armament]
Trigger, Match Rifle, Two Stage Adjustable [Geissele]
Palm Rest [White Oak Armament]
Sling, NRA Cuff 1 ¼ inches [Champions Choice CCS40]
Scope, Model 66575 VX-3 6.5-20x50mm [Leupold]
Scope Mount Bobro Low Standard BOBBO03200300

Load and Mean Radius (MR) Data:

Short Range Load – tbd

Long Range Load – tbd

MR data is based on three ten shots groups and all shots including “fliers” were included in the calculation. No shots were thrown out of the data.
 
T-REX said:
Buy the way, I name all my rifles and I call this one Infidel. Here are some of the specs. I did not include the load data or the size of the groups that I get with this rifle because.......


Infidel Project Parts List
(October 2012)

AR15 Receiver, Lower, Stripped [ArmaLite]
AR15 Receiver, Lower, Parts Kit [White Oak Armament]
AR15 Receiver, Upper, Side Charging w/picatinny rail [High Performance Intl. (HPI)]
Mike Bykowski (414-466-9040) mike@hpirifles.com
Buffer & Buttstock, Precision Adjustable [White Oak Armament]
Grip [Tubb]
Float Tube, 2 ¼ inch [White Oak Armament]
Barrel, 26” Length, 1:8 Twist, .223REM “Wylde” Chamber [White Oak Armament]
Bolt & Bolt Carrier Assembly [White Oak Armament]
Trigger, Match Rifle, Two Stage Adjustable [Geissele]
Palm Rest [White Oak Armament]
Sling, NRA Cuff 1 ¼ inches [Champions Choice CCS40]
Scope, Model 66575 VX-3 6.5-20x50mm [Leupold]
Scope Mount Bobro Low Standard BOBBO03200300

Load and Mean Radius (MR) Data:

Short Range Load – tbd

Long Range Load – tbd

MR data is based on three ten shots groups and all shots including “fliers” were included in the calculation. No shots were thrown out of the data.

That should work. Shoot it well and often. Shoot what you enjoy shooting.
 
I'm with you 100% T-Rex. Shoot what you enjoy and keep shooting. If others don't like what you shoot, tough. They can shoot what they enjoy shooting. It doesn't matter why the difference in opinions. I do still have 20/20 vision at a senior age, out of pure dumb luck. But I have learned more from older shooters with lots of experience then younger folks with still better than perfect vision. We can't afford to lose that knowledge base so I hope the older guys that as usual are having their vision go down, along with their strength and stamina to hold heavier weapons, hang in there and compete as long as possible, and shoot whatever they damn well please.
 
I think you guys may be misunderstanding my reply. I have no problem with guys shooting whatever they want, and encourage it. I can't imagine what I could care less about than what someone else shoots. Some shooters win matches and some lose matches. Both are just fine with me. The guys That get on my nerves are the ones who complain that they can't win because the competition is somehow unfair. Everyone else has better equipment, better vision, is younger, etc. In my experience, these guys are never the ones putting in the work that it takes to win, and these comments only diminish the shooters that do. The best shooters almost always win, and their equipment and vision are almost never the deciding factor. Skill, developed by hard work is.

This is only a hobby, shoot whatever makes you happy.
 
Erud said:
I think you guys may be misunderstanding my reply. I have no problem with guys shooting whatever they want, and encourage it. I can't imagine what I could care less about than what someone else shoots. Some shooters win matches and some lose matches. Both are just fine with me. The guys That get on my nerves are the ones who complain that they can't win because the competition is somehow unfair. Everyone else has better equipment, better vision, is younger, etc. In my experience, these guys are never the ones putting in the work that it takes to win, and these comments only diminish the shooters that do. The best shooters almost always win, and their equipment and vision are almost never the deciding factor. Skill, developed by hard work is.

This is only a hobby, shoot whatever makes you happy.

I understand completely. Many shooters drop out once age, eyesight, physical condition, etc. results in not being able to maintain the level of performance that they have been accustomed to. I am not really talking about winning but more of shooting against oneself and feeling good about the day on the range. I still shoot the M14 and do ok with it but at my age I know that the day is coming when I will have to lay it aside and the Infidel project was an experiment in something to try when that time comes. I have learned to enjoy the accuracy and ease of shooting the AR; it is like it makes the target bigger. I still can see the front sight on the M14 but find that I need some plus in my shooting glasses and I have gone from the national match front post to the standard width front post and that helps. The scope makes all the seeing issues moot and I can concentrate on the fundamentals of marksmanship better. The scope has the advantage of giving instant feedback on the effect on the area of wobble due to a position change. The Scoped AR (SAR) is a lot of fun to shoot and I have added Mid Range to my fun.
 
For the record, i do not shoot XTC. I always had GREAT vision. I shot very well in my work, and no firearm was foriegn to me, and all seemed to work well for me. I even hunted grouse exclusively with a 410, and did very well, much to the irritation of friends. I ALWAYS took credit for my abilities...after all...I was GREAT! Then I had several surgeries and after each one noted a decrease in some vision acuity. Then I hit my late 40's and now 50 and just yesterday picked up a nice 5 inch Glock....and even though the barrel was longer than my work gun, I was amazed at how terrible the machining on the sights was! I mean, the dang thing was so poorly made I could not make out the OD of that sight no matter how far out I held it! My arms are getting shorter too! I even noted that there seems to be an accumulation of dust on the front post of the M1A...seems darned fuzzy through that shrinking rear sight appeture.

I think what the OP was getting at is the voice of humility speaking. He is experiencing (gasp) human frailty (I know, SOME he-men hoorah types never experience that, and mostly post exploits on the net) and he is making adjustments to his program so that he can enjoy his sport...and doing a great job of it.

More power to him. I just hope when I finally can't hunt grouse, or shoot plates that i adapt and continue to enjoy the sport.
 
Human fragility does tend to piss me off as well. Its just that the alternative doesn't seem all that appealing either.
 
Erud said:
I think you guys may be misunderstanding my reply. I have no problem with guys shooting whatever they want, and encourage it. I can't imagine what I could care less about than what someone else shoots. Some shooters win matches and some lose matches. Both are just fine with me. The guys That get on my nerves are the ones who complain that they can't win because the competition is somehow unfair. Everyone else has better equipment, better vision, is younger, etc. In my experience, these guys are never the ones putting in the work that it takes to win, and these comments only diminish the shooters that do. The best shooters almost always win, and their equipment and vision are almost never the deciding factor. Skill, developed by hard work is.

This is only a hobby, shoot whatever makes you happy.



Not that it matters, my post was not influenced by yours. We all have our thoughts and opinions. We are here to share without a discriminating attitude.
 
chefpierre said:
Erud said:
I think you guys may be misunderstanding my reply. I have no problem with guys shooting whatever they want, and encourage it. I can't imagine what I could care less about than what someone else shoots. Some shooters win matches and some lose matches. Both are just fine with me. The guys That get on my nerves are the ones who complain that they can't win because the competition is somehow unfair. Everyone else has better equipment, better vision, is younger, etc. In my experience, these guys are never the ones putting in the work that it takes to win, and these comments only diminish the shooters that do. The best shooters almost always win, and their equipment and vision are almost never the deciding factor. Skill, developed by hard work is.

This is only a hobby, shoot whatever makes you happy.



Not that it matters, my post was not influenced by yours. We all have our thoughts and opinions. We are here to share without a discriminating attitude.

Absolutely.
 

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