Contest/Shoot Directors - Thanks for your hard work, BUT!!!

[falconpilot]

I want to take the time to thank all the people out there that give up thier weekends, time with their families, and the own personal shooting times in order to organize, put on, and run the shoot's and contest in which I so regularly attend.

I've grown to really love the sport of long range shooting, espically, F-Class. I come from a shooting background..first and foremost, hunting, then....competitive skeet, IPSC, 600/1000 IBS, 100/200 benchrest, and F-Class. After getting really serious about F-Class shooting last year, I started attending and shooting alot of matches. I'm talking about traveling across several states from my own in each direction to shoots.

Here's the thing...as competitive shooters, we spend A LOT of money and time on getting our equipment in top form...scopes, bullets, brass, powder, primers..the list just goes on...now, we get our lastest and greatest F-Classer shooting little bitty holes, take off across several states to a big shoot(we spend alot of money on traveling..gas, motels, etc), we get to the shot, we shot very well, finish second overall, and then when the awards are given out, we aren't even mentioned, much less do we win any wood..This happened to me recently at a STATE Championship!! Now, I've won enough stuff that this is no big deal for me, but what about the guy who finished in third in which this might have been his best finish ever?

Point is, as shooters, we all love to win, and when we do place first, second or third, we like to win something to show for our efforts. You know, wall clutter:0) Something we can hang up and look at, show off...Those small $10 plaque's that say "_____ Mid-Range Championship F-Class Second Place" makes all the thousands of dollars that we spend worth it!! Keep my $15-35 bucks for winning my class, and give me a trophy instead..I'll spend a lifetime looking that the trophies, reflecting back on the day that I won it, the friends I made, and times I shared...The damn $14-35 bucks will just go into the gas tank tank, and be forgotten 10 miles down the road..

Skeet, IPSC, IBS ,and Benchrest all give away awards down at least three places, and at big shoots much futher...It would be great to see this in F-Class...

Jim

 

[Travelor]

Jim, I agree, every F-Class match I have shot in lumped all the F-CLass shotoers together and some shooters never get recognized. THis is not good for the sport.

How about finishing first as an individual and first as a Team and get nothing for it. That has been the RULE for me and happened again last Friday in Memphis. The iron sight shooters got a nice walnut plaque.

One Club locally states in their State Championship Match bulletin F-Class will be allowed to shoot and be charged full match fees, but scores will not be used for match results. I guess at least they tell you up front how they feel about you.

Sorry, but I will not be going where I am treated as a second class citizen.

George

 

[mj2evans]

Do you shoot for a trophy or shoot to get better? I guess I don't understand grown men looking for awards. I have seen 45+ yr old men putting little medals on their guns - I simply don't understand this. The goal is to get better, at the end of the day you are only competing with yourself.

I have seen awards phenomenon in archery clubs and martial arts and honestly some of the adults are worse than the kids. Yes, I hold advanced rank and have won martial art tournements - no idea what happened to the "trophies."

 

[falconpilot]

I shoot for both, getting better and being at the top of my sport....the goal of getting better is to be at the top of your choosen sport. Winning is part of being competitive, and being recongized as one of the best in your sport is what every shooter strives for. Being competitive is always about shooting against yourself, doing the best you can do. I'll not put a metal on my gun as this can be seen as a little pretenish, but I will hang a trophy on my wall. Years down the road when I'm older and can't play the game anymore, I can look up and recall thousands of memories, good times, and good friends.

Also, let us not forget that our sport is small. Say a new shooter shows up, shoots very well, wins and then is not even mentioned...that doesn't do alot for encouraging one to continue in the sport...

Jim

 

[dmg264]

I believe this has to do a lot to do with why the shooting sports have not grown as much as they should have. Every other type of competition has some type of reward. I'm not trying to step on anybody's toes but if you are only competing against yourself why bother shooting against someone else? Why not stay at your own range?

We put thousands of dollars into this sport and it is nice to get a little something back out of it every once in a while. I would rather have cash or prizes but a trophy would be OK. I personally think the manufacturers ought to have a bigger presence in the competition world. They could have a big impact on making the sport grow and that would benefit both parties. Let's face it, we all want to win. Why not get some kind of reward for all the effort and money invested?

 

[MattKubic]

Jim and George,
First, let me say that I understand your arguments and I agree to a point. There are a couple of things that I think everyone needs to understand. The good people that run these matches are volunteers. They get no pay whatsoever. It takes probably around 15 to 20 hours of prep time and personal time to set up, run, get trophies ordered and picked up, return paperwork, clean up the range, etc. to put on a registered match. That is a lot to ask of any volunteer who has a family and works for a living. At NRA Regional matches, there are award medals for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. That is not always practical at lesser matches. It is extremely difficult to have it all go off without a hitch and not forget something. You must also remember that a NRA highpower registered match usually does not include F-class. That is because there is twice the paperwork to do as they are separate entities. Our TN F-class state championship, a registered match, this weekend did not include any awards for prone shooters even though it was a prone registered match also. I didn't care because it was for the F-class guys. I challenge you to take on the responsibilities of directing one of these registered matches before you start dissecting what should or should not be done at one of these matches. The good people that run these matches value their free time just as much as anyone else, but they sacrifice a lot of it so we can get out and compete with no responsibility. Yes, in a utopian world, plaques would be on hand for top three finishers in every category. In a utopian world we would have no politicians, no taxes, no socialist presidents, and no wind. 0 for 5. A lot of the other shooting disciplines you mention have corporate sponsors who cover a lot of the costs. In highpower, the match fees have to cover everything so funds are limited a little more. I agree that top performers should merit some mention at awards ceremonies, but remember that usually only one person is doing 99% of the work.
On another note, I remember getting my LR sharpshooter card, expert card and master card and they went straight into the garbage because all I really wanted was a HM card. When I got it, I kept it. A lot of match directors finally quit because of the numerous complaints they receive when someone gets their feelings hurt. I've never known anyone who finished first who got their feelings hurt or complained about a match. If you compete to win, second place just isn't good enough. I agree with both of you that it would be good PR for recognition of personal bests and runners up, and I think that is something that you should politely suggest to your match director. After all, we ain't getting paid a lot of money to win these matches. Just remember when you do it that they already have a lot on their plate.

Matt K.

 

[Taildrag15X]

This year we are running 6 NRA Approved F-Class Torunaments and 1 NRA Registered Tournament, The Adirondack Mid-Range Championship, I myself with the help of a few (and let me say very few helpers) have taken over the whole program due to the fact that money was there for cash prizes and trophies but was spent by the Program Director.

After being told how much work was involved in NRA High Power Tournament prep. and operation I still took on the task. And am I ever glad I did, the paperwork I heard so much about is all done on line, through email to the NRA. I had to make a Match Progam for both the Approved and Registered Tournaments and send them via email to the NRA, such hard work..........Now I know that the Score Reporting wll not be as easy due to the NRA's system failing for on line reporting, but I'll have to sit here and with the help of Windows make a list of competitors and scores, fill out SR-1 Cards and send them off with a check for EVERY shooter that was there, not just the NRA Memebers (the last guy would only send in the SR-1 Cards he wanted) everyone that shoots can be get a Classification Card as the NRA will give out a Competitive shooter number to that person. (it's important that the name and address be the same on all cards)

Our Tournaments are listed as High Power per the NRA Rules but are limited to F-Class Only, that menas if you come with irons we'll let you shoot for FUN and against yourself only.


I'll fit this all in with my own life that's full with 2 kids, wife, 3 dogs (2 grown and a new puppy!) 3 vehicles, my rental property upkeep, mowing, snowpowing (which might happen in about an hour if it don't stop) her store, my love of naps and anything else that comes up.

 

[falconpilot]

Please reread -

My quote - "I want to take the time to thank all the people out there that give up thier weekends, time with their families, and the own personal shooting times in order to organize, put on, and run the shoot's and contest in which I so regularly attend."

This post was in no way aimed at belittling or reducing the importance of what match directors do, and how hard they work. I make it a point to personal thank each match director for their time, for putting on the match, at every shoot that I attend. I also think it very important that as a shooter that we offer an help or assitantence that we might be able to give the match direcor thoughout the weekend.

It takes alot of hard work to put on these matches, we all understand that...if you're putting on a State or Regional, NRA approved shoot, why not spend the extra 15 mins it takes to order plaques? The shooters really appreicate it...

Jim

I

 

[MattKubic]

Jim,
I meant no disrespect or wished to insinuate that you were rude. After meeting you at last year's TN F-class championship, I know better. I know you and most people who shoot these matches on a regular basis understand what goes into them and appreciate the directors. Some don't though. I know more than one match director who just got sick of listening to a few people complain and I just wanted to reiterate that they need our support. Hope that sharp yellow rifle is shooting well for you. Get back down to TN soon.

Matt K.

 

[falconpilot]

Matt,

No insults taken ;D...Wish I could have made Tullahoma, but work calls :-\....

Anyways, I understand where you are coming from, and the guys and gals that put this contest on are to be comended for all they do.....I never meant to imply otherwise if I sounded otherwise. We could just make it better if we made some small changes...

Take care..

Jim

 

[FatBoy]

I think the brakedown comes from two things. 1) shooters not understanding that F class is simply a rifle catagory that falls under NRA Highpower and 2) Shooters who come from backgournds other than NRA Highpower.

If you go to Camp Perry to shoot the long range nationals, along with the 600 or so other shooters, and win, you get a picture of yourself next to the trophy and they mail you a certificate. Does that stop long range shooters from making the journy? Nope.

As far as plaques and awards,,, It's a never ending thing. 15 minutes? Not hardly. Drive out, pick out the plaques and make sure you have the fund to cover them, drive back, check them for corrections, etc. It takes half a day if everything is 100% correct, which is often isn't.

I have been down the road of sponsorship. If you guys want to run a match and hit up 50+ companies for support, be my guest. Most companies are good about it, but you have to hit them very early in the year. Then, you need to write individual lettters thanking each sponsor, etc.

Turn out, or lack there of, is not a result of awards etc. It has more to do with location and the cost of components. A lot of people simply can't afford to travel, or pay for components right now. When things get better, match turn out will improve. I hope it does too, as I spent $308 on trophies and plaques last match and LOST $700 on the match.

We, like most other NRA clubs, charge $10 per match for (r) and $15 - $25 for a day of shooting. Our goal is to break even after the insurance is paid and the targets, pasters, etc. is bought. The day we can't pay thaat insurance is probably the last time you'll shoot long range on AEDC.

What it boils down to is this; if you want awards like a regional benchrest match, go shoot a regional benchrest match. If you need recognition, I hear Obama is queing for a new Whitehouse spokesmen.

This was not directed to any individual here. Just one man thoughts after helping to develop the F Class rules for US shooters, helping to run a F Class National Championship and running seven consecutive F class Championships and six F class long range regionals.

Chris

 

[falconpilot]

Chris,

This is great hearing from you on this subject, as since I started shooting long range, it's your shoots that I compare all others too ;D... Again, I want every match director to know that I appreicate all their hard work, whether I'm happy about the trophies or not!!!! Without you guys, we wouldn't be shooting..I'm simply suggesting a way to make it better...

If anyone knows what they are talking about, it'd be you....but...you are "the" expection to any shoot that I've ever been too(and I've traveled alot!). I've been to your shoots for the last 2 years(Sorry I missed this past weekend- having to work sucks), and can say without doubt that if every contest director worked as hard as you, followed your format, this discussion wouldn't be taking place! Sling guys/F-Classers are threated as equals on both the firing line and trophy list, and your trophies are world class!

You put alot into directing a match, and it shows. Thanks for your hard work!!

Jim

 

[FatBoy]

Thanks Jim. AEDC and Butner were out front with F class. Then it started getting picked up heavy out west in Sacramento. Up until two years ago, most clubs didn't know that F class had different centers. Now, we are starting to see all the Southeast ranges with both targets on hand, as well as host F class along side prone matches. If there are five competitors, there should be an award if it's a registered match. It may only be money, but if they use the f targets and take F money, F should go into the results.

What many of the MD's are missing is the average age of a prone shooter is about mid 50's to early 60's now. F class brings out a younger component, and also allows those who may not want to hold the rifle anymore, or can't use irons, to continue competing. I'm starting to see some prone shooters come out to F matches to practice reading wind, without worrying about the wobble, etc.

What we need to be careful of is stuff like the 15 shot F class match. Most clubs don't shoot fullbbore, so 20 shot matches are the norm. If F class shoots 15 and prone shoots 20, there are issues with timing and scoring. As long as we keep standard matches going and run Prone and F class together on the line, as it was intended to be, the sport will continue to grow. Once we get a larger turn out of F at bigger matches, like regionals, etc. Match directors will see the advantages and it will become more accepted. More turn out = better prizes. usually.


The key to keeping the sport going now is finding affordable primers, powder, bullets and gas money.

 

[benjamin199]

My club is hosting a state championship match this summer for mid-range prone/F-class. Almost every F-class shooter I questioned stated they would rather have medals or awards over a cash payout. Now the million dollar question does anyone know of a good sorrce for award medals, I have been searching around on the web the last couple days and most of the shooting awards are for pistol, skeet or 3 position, if anyone can help me out with some ideas it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ben

 

[dean253]

Hey Ben,

You might call Mark @ Midwest Trophy in Del City, Oklahoma. www.mwtrophy.com 800-324-5997. I use these guys for the plaques at our registered matches. They do some big time work like Big 12, National Championship & Nascar Trophies.

 

[dean253]

As for Jim's input I agree with his point here. As a Match Director here I can say there are 2 main things that hold me back from doing what Jim is asking. The first & foremost is time. There has to be a breaking point of how much time we or I am willing to give for these matches as I work 3-4 jobs, have a social life & am trying to stay competitive as a shooter myself. We have always done plaques for our 2 day aggregate winners. The reason we don't go 2 or 3 deep with the plaques is because we have no idea how many entrants we will have for each category ( LArgely because guys, me included are terrible at pre-entering) & how can you have 3 plaques for F-Open & only one for Match rifle per say. It gets to be a mess to organize & not hurt any feelings. We used to do a NRA Regional event but I was told that there were not medals for the f-class guys in the NRA Mid-Range format. There is for long range but not Mid Range. WTH I say! So we decided to go with a Registered Match instead. Just my .02 worth fellas.

 

[rayjay]

I compete in rimfire and cf Benchrest. I would much rather be paid money if I finish well. The cf matches have a 50% payback and the rf matches provide lunch which is the equivalent of paying money to everybody .

I have been match director at Airgun BR matches and this year I am putting on RF BR matches, the first at my club in a decade. I always pay money.

I have 2 good sized boxes of motorsports placques and MARBLE base trophies up in the attic [ marble meaning OLD ]. My memories are all I need of those events. Eventually the dust collectors are thrown away.

 

[GaryD]

As a newbe, and intrested in getting into some form of competive shooting I would rather have some form of hardware, but those who run the matches have a valid point about time and cost. A cheap way to provide something is to print off a certificate. All that would be required would be a laptop, printer and a high grade paper. Maybe put it in a nice frame for 1st place? Once a template is made just a few changes would have to be made i.e. name, class, dates, may even put in the score. Just an idea and hope I don't offend anyone.

Gary