The big primer seating debate

[Webster]

I have not been doing it by feel, but I am convinced to try it for the next club meet. I think hitting the primer at slightly different distance, might not be bad, if you compensate by having anvil compression the same by seating by feel.
I think .001 to .002 physical compression that can be achieved by feel, is enough the straighten the anvils to have all 3 touching the bottom of the primer pocket.
Again, only my thinking, and I have been known be be wrong.

Is crush a made up number. I don't think each primer has the same amount of charge. Someone on this website weighed primers before and after firing. Before firing they were different after firing they were all the same wt.

If I get motivated, I will look for some primers I have that by eye they have large charge amount variation. You can see the charge seeping up between the anvil legs. Will photo if I find them. They are a definite exception. This tells me that when applying the charge which is wet like tooth paste and sticky, they cannot get an exact amount in the cup. Pushing the foil down a fixed amount can make it come up above the anvil in an extreme event. I would guess that the anvil is pushed into the cup a fixed amount regardless of the charge and foil location. Based on this how can you crush the charge an exact amount.

I will always seat by feel.

 

[6BRA]

I wonder why Speedy cleans primer pockets? David Parks video. I mean after all didn't he shoot the smallest group agg ever at the tack driver last year?
We know why if you listened.

 

[Ccrider]

I wonder why Speedy cleans primer pockets? David Parks video. I mean after all didn't he shoot the smallest group agg ever at the tack driver last year?
We know why if you listened.

Maybe both @speedygonzalez and @Alex Wheeler will chime in with their thoughts on cleaning primer pockets. They know ignition.

 

[Fuj]

I clean primer pockets because I seat by feel. When things go bang,
the primer is driven back leaving a gap in the pocket. That gap now
has a carbon crust that filled that space. Some are slight and some
can be severe. If that crust is not cleaned out, your now going to feel
a false pocket bottom if seating by feel. Does it show up on paper ??
Yes it does if really chasing them low ones and zeros. Takes me just a
couple of minutes to clean 100 pockets, And I know in my head they
are as good as the day I first uniformed them, and ready to prime......
For the shooters using a pre-set machine that don't clean pockets,
how do you figure what you think of as crush when you have to ram
past the filth first ??

 

[Mblmotors]

I recently annealed some brass as a re set so to speak, the seating depth had more variation than in previous brass cycles requiring a bit of back and forth to get it right and after all that messing It didn’t help the targets at all.
Sorry .. for the editing..I’m in the middle of kitchen duties.. lol
Back to primer pockets , I see no downside to lightly cleaning , I guess it’s just a personal choice

I had the same issue of multiple goes at the FL die to get all the brass shoulders the same. I think I solved that issue by annealing twice. Once before sizing and again before priming. Nothing bad happens from two annealings and you will release extra tension from multiple runs inside FL sizer.

 

[6BRA]

I had the same issue of multiple goes at the FL die to get all the brass shoulders the same. I think I solved that issue by annealing twice. Once before sizing and again before priming. Nothing bad happens from two annealings and you will release extra tension from multiple runs inside FL sizer.

Not to mention that pockets will grow .0005 on outside edge just about every fring.with warm loads.

 

[2-Stroke Dirt Devil]

Things I swore I'd never do a few years ago, I am now doing. Sorting primers, turning necks.
Wasn't supposed to let it get so serious or time consuming.
Underestimated the power of the x-ring.

 

[2-Stroke Dirt Devil]

I clean pockets because I like to verify pocket depth vs primer height. If pocket isn't clean, you're not going to make that measurement.

Something I don't see folks talking much about is the difference in measuring tools and equipment.
I have found my results are based on my measuring tools and techniques. There may be as much as 0.002" difference between my measurements with my equipment vs someone else's using the same "brand tool". My results are relative to, and based solely on my measurement tools. They are not absolute.

 

[6BRA]

I clean pockets because I like to verify pocket depth vs primer height. If pocket isn't clean, you're not going to make that measurement.

Something I don't see folks talking much about is the difference in measuring tools and equipment.
I have found my results are based on my measuring tools and techniques. There may be as much as 0.002" difference between my measurements with my equipment vs someone else's using the same "brand tool". My results are relative to, and based solely on my measurement tools. They are not absolute.

That seems like a large variance with the tools out there and available. Accuracy 1. Rabbit Hole. Are you using a caliper or high end indicators? I can't imagine that variance in measurement.

 

[2-Stroke Dirt Devil]

That seems like a large variance with the tools out there and available. Accuracy 1. Rabbit Hole. Are you using a caliper or high end indicators? I can't imagine that variance in measurement.

Taken in combination. I have 5 identical calipers on my bench. They all read the same. Very consistent. Actually scrapped a Starrett because it didn't track. Add Hornady headspace or bullet comparators, now +/-0.0005" variation, or 1 thou. I have a couple (spares) of Hornady headspace and bullet comparators for each cartridge I load, I have to be careful to use the same comparators and not the spares or my headspace or seating depths measurement will be different by 1 to 1.5 thou. It's cumulative. Still measures 1 to 1.5 thou shoulder bump after sizing.

I do have Accuracy 1 precision primer gauge, but some of the other equipment out is $$$.
Sorting primers now and I am re-zeroing my FX-120i about every 10 weighs, as it does drift a little despite having being on for several hours. Keeping a couple of primers out to remeasure to as I go for sanity sake.

Accidentally get a bump or small burr in your comparator and your measurements will shift. The tolerances will be the same, but the numbers will be different.

 

[jimmymac]

I clean primer pockets because I seat by feel. When things go bang,
the primer is driven back leaving a gap in the pocket. That gap now
has a carbon crust that filled that space. Some are slight and some
can be severe. If that crust is not cleaned out, your now going to feel
a false pocket bottom if seating by feel. Does it show up on paper ??
Yes it does if really chasing them low ones and zeros. Takes me just a
couple of minutes to clean 100 pockets, And I know in my head they
are as good as the day I first uniformed them, and ready to prime......
For the shooters using a pre-set machine that don't clean pockets,
how do you figure what you think of as crush when you have to ram
past the filth first ??

I have never had an issue and I also seat by feel. I have tested this for myself over countless rounds. Groups and scores did not suffer. IMO, for the games I play there are bigger things at hand than worrying myself about a little crud in the bottom of a pocket.

I am not trying to change what anyone does. Each guy has to determine for himself what matters. The only way to do that is to test and either keep the info to yourself or share as food for thought. I am always hesitant to add to these threads even though I have put in the work.

 

[WyleWD]

I have never had an issue and I also seat by feel. I have tested this for myself over countless rounds. Groups and scores did not suffer. IMO, for the games I play there are bigger things at hand than worrying myself about a little crud in the bottom of a pocket.

I am not trying to change what anyone does. Each guy has to determine for himself what matters. The only way to do that is to test and either keep the info to yourself or share as food for thought. I am always hesitant to add to these threads even though I have put in the work.

+1^^^^Amen to that. WD

 

[rwj]

I am not trying to change what anyone does. Each guy has to determine for himself what matters. The only way to do that is to test and either keep the info to yourself or share as food for thought. I am always hesitant to add to these threads even though I have put in the work.

This is exactly why I subscribe and support this forum - other’s willingness to share their practices and experiences! Wish that I was a more accomplished shooter that could share demonstrably winning ways…

 

[AlNyhus]

I am always hesitant to add to these threads even though I have put in the work.

Amen, Jim.

I uniform primer pockets, seat by feel with ancient and dangerous round Lee primer tools *, and clean pockets every time with the uniformer.

Good shootin' -Al

* You'll shoot your eye out!

 

[quest450]

It may not make a difference in SRBR but IMO everything mattes in 600 and 1K competition, it takes me no more than 20 minutes to clean and re uniform primer pockets in a 100 cases using 21st Century tool, it's all about eliminating variables and building confidence, every time I get behind my gun at a match I'm trying to shoot sub 1" LG group @1K.
I'm not able to control the conditions but I'll do everything I can to make sure my ammo, my rifle and all of my equipment is capable.

 

[Shooter13]

^^^^^^^
I am with you! Most people are adding steps while I have been subtracting. Shot a whole season a few years back without ever messing with a primer pocket. Results were good. Certainly no worse than previous years.

Not sure it it's been covered but I seat the primers then work the powder, seating depth, neck tension and then the tuner, so I guess what I'm saying is I tune to primer seating depth?

 

[quest450]

And to pour a little more gasoline on this smoldering fire yes I do use fancy primer seater with the newest addition of Rimlock that indexes off the base of the case and eliminates the variance in rim thickness

 

[JFrank]

@quest450
You have the best toys !!!

 

[quest450]

@quest450
You have the best toys !!!

At this point I'm trying to "BUY" that elusive sub 1" group

 

[jimmymac]

@quest450
You have the best toys !!!

Yes he does! It is cool how many ways people skin the cat.