The big primer seating debate

[ELR LVR]

I suggest you review the result gotten by shooters who seat by feel. Do you know who Wayne Campbell is and what his record in competition is...seriously, do you? There are a lot of people who post a lot of things under screen names. We have no idea who they are. You might want to think about that for a minute....or a little longer.

Actually I agree exactly with what speedygonzales posted (Post #23)
" my best results according to two years of data points to having the print just seat on the pocket floor to .001 of crush.
When oover seating or crushing the primer, the rifles would spit shots into the conditions randomly."
or yes, seat by feel
I am in that camp and have been for over 30 years
---
Maybe you misunderstood my post
too many are trying to be overly analytical with this
Allthewhile
neglecting the very factor I posted
and not realizing
to arrive at a repeatably accurate solution to a problem one must turn all variables into known constants
---
otherwise it is doing as the saying goes
Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is ....the definition of stupid/insanity

 

[bobinpa]

In my humble opinion....
1. Most shooters don't shoot well enough to see the difference of primer seating depths on the target.
2. If you are a competitor and primer seating depth gives you confidence, then you almost have to do it.
3. Some people think they can buy ability, until somebody with old beat up equipment whoops their butt.

Pick whatever discipline you shoot and look at the records and scores that were set ~20 years ago - before primer depth was even a thought. If you can't shoot that good, then primer depth isn't your hurdle.

 

[ELR LVR]

In my humble opinion....
1. Most shooters don't shoot well enough to see the difference of primer seating depths on the target.
2. If you are a competitor and primer seating depth gives you confidence, then you almost have to do it.
3. Some people think they can buy ability, until somebody with old beat up equipment whoops their butt.

Pick whatever discipline you shoot and look at the records and scores that were set ~20 years ago - before primer depth was even a thought. If you can't shoot that good, then primer depth isn't your hurdle.

Another very good way of putting it

 

[Shooter13]

A lot of people, perhaps new, didn't participate in the previous discussions, likely. We owe it to them to share what we know, or not. Just depends on one's patience and willingness to SHARE

All well and good, I guess there should be a list of required reading before using the forum, like "How to search and why!"

 

[Mblmotors]

Unfortunately there is no avoiding overthinking in the Short Range BR that I do. Wish I had more time to practice, but that being limited by life, hand loading becomes the thing I think of all the time and test a lot.

 

[gmr4]

In my humble opinion....
1. Most shooters don't shoot well enough to see the difference of primer seating depths on the target.
2. If you are a competitor and primer seating depth gives you confidence, then you almost have to do it.
3. Some people think they can buy ability, until somebody with old beat up equipment whoops their butt.

Pick whatever discipline you shoot and look at the records and scores that were set ~20 years ago - before primer depth was even a thought. If you can't shoot that good, then primer depth isn't your hurdle.

probably will never win with this attitude…. One should seek to improve everything all the time if winning is the goal.
Going in defeated will never crack the door open to leaps and bounds of improvements… “I suck therefor I shouldnt improve my primer seating… reloading… etc etc”
Man.. I would never teach my grandkids that….

 

[Syncrowave]

I recently watched a Youtube video by (IIRC) that "Winning In the Wind" guy and (again, IIRC) he concluded that none of it made a measurable positive difference ... so the easiest, fastest way to prime is probably best.

(Then again, I also watched a YT video by those Hornady kids and they said "hyper-prepped" brass didn't shoot any better, statistically speaking, than minimally prepped brass. So I guess the improvements I've observed in my own handloads are all confirmation bias in my own headspace...hey, whatever it takes!)

 

[gmr4]

I recently watched a Youtube video by (IIRC) that "Winning In the Wind" guy and (again, IIRC) he concluded that none of it made a measurable positive difference ... so the easiest, fastest way to prime is probably best.

(Then again, I also watched a YT video by those Hornady kids and they said "hyper-prepped" brass didn't shoot any better, statistically speaking, than minimally prepped brass. So I guess the improvements I've observed in my own handloads are all confirmation bias in my own headspace...hey, whatever it takes!)

Kieths firsts testing… there are more videos from him on the topic

 

[NF1E]

Why do some prefer a bay over a paint or even a mule?
Because this is America and we have choices.
Not always the destination that counts, but how one appears along the way.

Viva America

 

[ebb]

Gosh I wish Dave Tooley would post his opinion here.

 

[gmr4]

Kieths firsts testing… there are more videos from him on the topic

Attention to primers does matter…

 

[6BRA]

I love it when I hear the arrogant ignorant comments about being able to shoot the difference! And Ive got a good idea where this was coined.
Let me ask those arrogant folks. At what point does one shoot the difference? 1/3 Moa at 300 to 600 yards? Or is it .25 Moa at those distances? Or is it less than that? Consistently? Just the arrogance to make a statement like that. Its like puffing your chest out and expecting it to mean something.
People don't go from 1Moa to .5 Moa without making changes. Going from .3 Moa to .25 Moa is much more difficult at those distances and doing it consistently. Changes have to be made to improve.

 

[alf]

How many of the primer seater debaters weigh their primers?

 

[bobinpa]

probably will never win with this attitude…. One should seek to improve everything all the time if winning is the goal.
Going in defeated will never crack the door open to leaps and bounds of improvements… “I suck therefor I shouldnt improve my primer seating… reloading… etc etc”
Man.. I would never teach my grandkids that….

I think you really misinterpreted my post. I don't go into anything defeated and it's not an attitude at all. It was merely an observation. The OP asked "And why do we need 700 dollar primer seaters?" In my opinion we don't. Then I gave my opinion on why some people use them. My underlying point is that there are far more important things to focus on before primer depth. For example, if someone is shooting on a windy day and they can't read the wind or accurately correct for it, then seating primers at flush vs -.005 likely won't make any difference on their target. To further explain my point, if you look back a couple of decades, there were some really great shooters posting some really great scores and even records and they probably didn't use an adjustable primer seater, because they weren't available yet, but they somehow rose to the top without it... so maybe there are bigger hurdles to conquer before deluding oneself to think that buying a $700.00 primer seater will give them a win at the next match.

 

[gmr4]

I think you really misinterpreted my post. I don't go into anything defeated and it's not an attitude at all. It was merely an observation. The OP asked "And why do we need 700 dollar primer seaters?" In my opinion we don't. Then I gave my opinion on why some people use them. My underlying point is that there are far more important things to focus on before primer depth. For example, if someone is shooting on a windy day and they can't read the wind or accurately correct for it, then seating primers at flush vs -.005 likely won't make any difference on their target. To further explain my point, if you look back a couple of decades, there were some really great shooters posting some really great scores and even records and they probably didn't use an adjustable primer seater, because they weren't available yet, but they somehow rose to the top without it... so maybe there are bigger hurdles to conquer before deluding oneself to think that buying a $700.00 primer seater will give them a win at the next match.

Those great shooters probably all were VERY consistent with seating primers.. new stuff makes it easier.

As far as your clarifying post… we call that “crawfishing” around here….

 

[rardoin]

As far as your clarifying post… we call that “crawfishing” around here….

Please don't speak for all just because YOU see it as crawfishing. I do not see his clarification as such. Debate is healthy.

 

[Shooter13]

I just conducted my own two year test of primer seating in actual competition. Brian " The Witch Doctor" mentioned some things in his podcast that seemed plausible. Being the my real name is Thomas and a true doubting Thomas at that, I had to test this for myself. After two years of testing in actual matches around Texas and now South Carolina, my best results according to two years of data points to having the print just seat on the pocket floor to .001 of crush. When oover seating or crushing the primer, the rifles would spit shots into the conditions randomly.
That's all I got,
Keep'em small!
Speedy

PS: I use a Sinclair 2000, I have had for years with the addition of the Second Hand to hold it vertically on my loading bench.. Watch the video and start about minute 38 to see it live.

I got the same seater and holder from Todd, love it. So how come I don't have any HOF points???? LOL
Guess I should have started 40 plus years ago and done more praying about my shooting.

 

[gmr4]

Please don't speak for all just because YOU see it as crawfishing. I do not see his clarification as such. Debate is healthy.

I said something because of all the hopeful new shooters and reloaders who search these pages trying to learn.. too many times I see comments about wasting time doing x or y because you need trigger time.. wind reading. This is not linear.. everything can run parallel.. reloading improvements .. shooting skills…. AND it should be or is really a ton of challenging FUN

 

[Syncrowave]

What's "crawfishing"? Does it require the use of "clickers"?

Signed,
Hopelessly UnHepHip

 

[Nevned]

I seat with an RCBS bench priming tool and seat by feel with a slight crush (I know, very unscientific). It works for me as I commonly see very good on target results. I have found that finding the correct primer manufacturer for the load as most of you already know is also very important Nevned