Test range waist of money ?

[J.d. Popkes]

When Whidden finds a good lot, shot at sea level, what happens when you go home, gaining 5k’ elevation? 90% to 10% humidity changes. Maybe that’s what tuners are for or maybe it’s not a problem.

Also, curious, the guys that shoot the cards that are 25 shots, one shot per target. If you are testing at home, not Whiddens using 10 shots and millimeters on the outside of groups, what’s the go/no go threshold on a series of 5 shot groups on center? 5x5 shot groups, what’s “good enough”?

 

[TRSR8]

When Whidden finds a good lot, shot at sea level, what happens when you go home, gaining 5k’ elevation? 90% to 10% humidity changes. Maybe that’s what tuners are for or maybe it’s not a problem.

Also, curious, the guys that shoot the cards that are 25 shots, one shot per target. If you are testing at home, not Whiddens using 10 shots and millimeters on the outside of groups, what’s the go/no go threshold on a series of 5 shot groups on center? 5x5 shot groups, what’s “good enough”?

Good ammo is good all the time.
If you need to screw with your tuner your gun was probably not tuned to begin with. Guys, lately, seem obsessed with groups.
Guys that shoot score usually test by shooting cards. Often enough, good groups fail the score test.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Good ammo is good all the time.
If you need to screw with your tuner your gun was probably not tuned to begin with. Guys, lately, seem obsessed with groups.
Guys that shoot score usually test by shooting cards. Often enough, good groups fail the score test.

So shoot cards, one shot, not groups? But whidden tests by shooting groups, that’s the test. I guess like many things on here, no consensus has been reached.

Seems to me that shooting groups will tell you the frequency I’d be hitting the bull?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

So shoot cards, one shot, not groups? But whidden tests by shooting groups, that’s the test. I guess like many things on here, no consensus has been reached.

Seems to me that shooting groups will tell you the frequency I’d be hitting the bull?

The test groups are showing the performance of the lot being tested, logical consensus would be if it can shoot very small consistent groups, it should be able to score well. consistent is the key word here.
I just tested at Lapua's Mesa center about 3 weeks ago and though there were lots that shot 11mm the corresponding follow up group was bigger as much as 1mm+ at times the lot I got was only 0.50mm difference with between the two 10 shot groups.
I already won one ARA match with it in less-than-ideal conditions.

Lee

 

[TRSR8]

So shoot cards, one shot, not groups? But whidden tests by shooting groups, that’s the test. I guess like many things on here, no consensus has been reached.

Seems to me that shooting groups will tell you the frequency I’d be hitting the bull?

Test centers shoot groups, for sure, but there are more than a few high level match shooters that feel it is an imperfect system and evidence that good grouping does not always hold up shooting in matches, alas it is the system we deal with. Also, test centers testing ammo that should be ho hum, often, hold up pretty good score shooting, simply another fact designed to drive guys nuts.
Test centers testing by score is impractical for a few reasons but one thing I assure you, good match shooters make their ultimate decision by shooting cards.

 

[1Merlin]

Good ammo is good all the time.
If you need to screw with your tuner your gun was probably not tuned to begin with. Guys, lately, seem obsessed with groups.
Guys that shoot score usually test by shooting cards. Often enough, good groups fail the score test.

Shooting scores is not worth a crap for me to test ammo as I can't read the wind and and as an added bonus have poor technique. Shooting cards adds the shooter skills AND the lack thereof to the equation. I put forth that the ability to shoot good groups is a much more easily acquired skill than shooting cards and therefore Not a fair or correct determination of the actual quality of the ammo.

Of course this is just my opinion.

 

[whiddengunworks]

I'm not so sure it has to be either-or on group shooting or score shooting.

Both the Megalink (used by us and Lapua) and the Meyton (Eley) systems will give you both group and score data. The score data is the score as shot on the 50 Meter ISSF target, the Olympic target. Remember that originally all this was about Olympic shooting so this target has been used for scoring since the beginning to test ranges.

While generally a tight group and a good score go hand in hand that's not always the case.

Here's one way to explain. Let's say your ammo shoots an 11.2mm group (I chose this example because it's exactly 2x bullet diameter). Say it's a perfect donut, evenly distributed around the circle. Excellent group size but not the best possible score.

On the other hand, say this same 11.2mm ammo shoots 9 shots exactly through the same hole, then puts one lonely bullet right beside the group. Still 11.2mm, but the score will be very much higher.

Personally, I tend to prefer the higher scoring ammo even if I sacrifice a small amount of group size. I find it more predictable in the wind.

So nobody is really wrong in this argument, and I suggest considering BOTH the group size and the score data when deciding on ammo.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

I'm not so sure it has to be either-or on group shooting or score shooting.

Both the Megalink (used by us and Lapua) and the Meyton (Eley) systems will give you both group and score data. The score data is the score as shot on the 50 Meter ISSF target, the Olympic target. Remember that originally all this was about Olympic shooting so this target has been used for scoring since the beginning to test ranges.

While generally a tight group and a good score go hand in hand that's not always the case.

Here's one way to explain. Let's say your ammo shoots an 11.2mm group (I chose this example because it's exactly 2x bullet diameter). Say it's a perfect donut, evenly distributed around the circle. Excellent group size but not the best possible score.

On the other hand, say this same 11.2mm ammo shoots 9 shots exactly through the same hole, then puts one lonely bullet right beside the group. Still 11.2mm, but the score will be very much higher.

Personally, I tend to prefer the higher scoring ammo even if I sacrifice a small amount of group size. I find it more predictable in the wind.

So nobody is really wrong in this argument, and I suggest considering BOTH the group size and the score data when deciding on ammo.

So groups in the low twos, on center, is the goal? Give or take. That’s high level?

 

[Williwaw]

So groups in the low twos, on center, is the goal? Give or take. That’s high level?

I'd have said likely adequate but not high level.

 

[F250]

That is an Anschutz Precise stock.

Thanks Benny, as I do not want to post inaccurate information.

 

[Frankr]

Not so much the size of the group but consistency of the group and more importantly the groups location.
Here is a nice 5 shot’er

When you can do this consistently you would certainly think you could shoot a good score target but it’s not always the case.

 

[Frankr]

There is a lot happening when moving from bull to bull. There is actually many things affecting the shot. I have seen several times where I cleared the top three rows but it was like I was shooting a different rifle on the bottom two rows. The wind conditions or the wind AIR the bullet traveled through was different. I lost two shots on the last row. I actually shot that range twice and was on the same bench both times and had the same exact issue. So like different layers of air and I had to be very focused and careful on the last two rows of bulls.
So you need the groups as a reference but they are not always going to translate to good scores. Do to many variables.

 

[whiddengunworks]

J.D. Popkas, I may be misunderstanding your question, but if something will shoot low .2 inch accuracy, center to center, at 50 yards for 4 groups of 10 shots then yes that's about as good as we've ever seen.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

J.D. Popkas, I may be misunderstanding your question, but if something will shoot low .2 inch accuracy, center to center, at 50 yards for 4 groups of 10 shots then yes that's about as good as we've ever seen.

I’ve not really messed with 10 shot groups, sometimes but rare.

I was saying if I shoot 5 groups of 5 shots each and come out averaging low 2’s, is that fairly decent?

Basically asking, for the people who shoot for real, but shoot the cards, one shot, when they test, what’s good? You’re saying 10 shots measuring 11mm. I’ll have to try some 10 shot groups I guess.

That criterion you sold me is outrageous.

 

[BowChamp]

I’ve not really messed with 10 shot groups, sometimes but rare.

I was saying if I shoot 5 groups of 5 shots each and come out averaging low 2’s, is that fairly decent?

Basically asking, for the people who shoot for real, but shoot the cards, one shot, when they test, what’s good? You’re saying 10 shots measuring 11mm. I’ll have to try some 10 shot groups I guess.

That criterion you sold me is outrageous.

I'm no expert and just my thoughts on your question Sir.....

If you can average in the low .2's for five 5 shot groups you should be able to do okay at one shot per bull for 25 shots. Just have to figure out how to move consistently from bull to bull while making condition calls.

Maybe practice putting the 5 shots groups where you want them and not just randomly around the bull.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

I'm no expert and just my thoughts on your question Sir.....

If you can average in the low .2's for five 5 shot groups you should be able to do okay at one shot per bull for 25 shots. Just have to figure out how to move consistently from bull to bull while making condition calls.

Maybe practice putting the 5 shots groups where you want them and not just randomly around the bull.

To be clear I’m not saying I can lay down 20 groups and not have an oops or two that’d wreck my average. But I’ve done a fair amount of testing and I think that’s where I’m at. Low 2’s. Just wondering what the card shooters were looking for when testing.

I’m strictly a bipod, squeeze bag bench/prone guy. Sk ammo only. Some lower grade Eley. I am just beginning to figure out wind, much to learn. I’ve tested 15/20 lots. My rifle prefers semi auto and biathlon. Std+ too. Just is what it is.