Swaging Hard Tip Bullets?

[Albedo]

How do you swage a bullet with a hard tip inside the core? I called Federal Ammunition and talked to them about the M855, which they said they drop the steel tip into the tubing, then the lead core, and swage it all at once and that makes the M855 bullet. But when I was talking to Corbin's, he doesn't think my bullet could do that. Below is the drawing of it with basic dimensions, the abilities of it haven't been proven nor the legality of it, so DON'T make one unless you want to assist with making a prototype for the ATF. A variant of this will be on the market if everything goes well hopefully by the end of the year (2022).

But see how it has a tungsten tip? If I have the tip machined to shape, ie the shape of the die but not as wide or long, would that work without breaking the die? I can't use plating because the two halves aren't compatible. What can I do to be able to swage this?

 

[Fuj]

I won't say yes or no but I'd keep carbide away from any
bearing surface with a thin skin.

Corbin's method......

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

What is the intended purpose of these bullets?

Frank

 

[GotRDid]

Caliber and end use, as mentioned before? All of your core materials are prohibitively expensive and machining tungsten to the tolerances required equates to building the M2 163 gr AP Garand and M1919 Machinegun, and/or the AP .50 BMG cores as in WWII. Starting with hardened rods and modern CNC tooling would be scaleable, but very costly.
what market void are you seeking to fill? Civilian or Military?

 

[GotRDid]

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[Albedo]

What is the intended purpose of these bullets?

Frank

Caliber and end use, as mentioned before? All of your core materials are prohibitively expensive and machining tungsten to the tolerances required equates to building the M2 163 gr AP Garand and M1919 Machinegun, and/or the AP .50 BMG cores as in WWII. Starting with hardened rods and modern CNC tooling would be scaleable, but very costly.
what market void are you seeking to fill? Civilian or Military?

Civilian AP ammo, military and LEO if they want it but they aren't the primary market.

The tungsten is the most costly yes, the tin/bismuth alloy or lead isn't very expensive. I am still in the process of alloy selection for the tungsten, which some alloys are cheaper than others, and will be redesigning the tip a bit for better manufacturability. It is niche market but with the AR pistols and other rifle caliber pistols on the market, AP is pretty much extinct. And with the ATF breathing down anybody's neck, it requires a lot of resolve to lawyer up to even get an idea ok'd by them for civilian sale. So there definitely is a void, you can argue how big the void is and if AP ammo is worth it, but it definitely exists.

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I am very aware of these cartridges. I have looked at them all, but can't find information on the specific manufacturing method (and preferably video) of them. The M855A1 I know gets manufactured upside down, which is why they have the tip non-jacketed. But that method and design is patented and in effect for a few more years. The M855, I called Federal Ammunition and they said they just drop the steel tip in first and then the lead cylinder after and use a "custom" die. I couldn't get specifics on how the die was designed or operates to make it work without breaking.

Currently what I am thinking would work is: if I have the tungsten tip machined to spec, i.e. smaller ogive radii than the final, smaller diameter, not as long, and larger tip area; and I place that in first, then place the tin/bismuth rod behind it (cut to the volume needed to fill) and have a custom die made to the exact shape I want the bullet, it should swage the bullet no problem since it isn't actually forming the tungsten but rather is shaping the copper and moving the tungsten into position. But that is just a concept obviously, and I don't want to make the mistake of thinking it'll work, get a couple hundred dollar die made and poof it doesn't work..

 

[Dusty Stevens]

One big problem i see is cost of manufacturing the tungsten tips then trying to get every jacket made to be the correct thickness for your die and tungsten. I think youre trying to fill a void thats there for a reason (same reason you cant find any info on them)- the alphabet crew will shoot 2 of your dogs over this. If youre trying to fill the void of the green tips those are steel penetrators and no problem at all to manufacture

 

[Albedo]

One big problem i see is cost of manufacturing the tungsten tips then trying to get every jacket made to be the correct thickness for your die and tungsten. I think youre trying to fill a void thats there for a reason (same reason you cant find any info on them)- the alphabet crew will shoot 2 of your dogs over this. If youre trying to fill the void of the green tips those are steel penetrators and no problem at all to manufacture

I think everybody is over estimating the cost a bit, which is fair to be skeptical because tungsten is a heavy metal and is hard to machine, but the alloy plays a role in this too. 90% tungsten nickel iron alloys are 33% cheaper than a 99% tungsten alloy. I am pretty sure I can use that alloy since the two main properties I care about is density and ductility. Won't know for absolute sure until field tests and ANSYS simulation. But it is favoring that direction. Then factor in what the machining involves, turning the diameter and ogive (can be easily done on a 3 axis CNC or even a regular lathe CNC), cutting the tip, and cutting it off at the end (if I change it to flat end). Then lets say pre-orders of 1000. Cost could easily be under $1 per tip. While yes this isn't gonna be an M855 killer, it is aimed to be ammunition you don't want to not have if shit hits the fan and even home defense. So even if it ends up total cost of a cartridge is $1.2+, I think it will be okay, I mean shotgun ammo is more expensive per cartridge and no matter what cannot penetrate armor.

The thicknesses I can manipulate with tolerance design. If I know the tolerance range of the copper thickness and the dimension I want the outer diameter to be (.224), then I can tolerance my tungsten piece to never exceed the possibility of being larger than it.

Indeed they are an issue, hence why I am using an attorney throughout this process, to make sure they take this seriously and have a long hard think before trying something stupid (and illegal) like denying my ammo. It won't work out so well since that opens the gate to taking them to federal court, and they've been really getting slapped around there lately.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Good luck. We use 97% tungsten in fishing weights. Its very tough stuff

 

[Fuj]

Civilian AP ammo,

There's cheering in the streets, and the lawyers go wild.
Civilian is the key word here. Too many things to go sideways.
Don't see any good ruling from the ATF any time soon.
Personally, I'd target the Military to get things off the ground
for your venture, It would be less capital expenditure towards
those people wearing suits and ties.

 

[Albedo]

There's cheering in the streets, and the lawyers go wild.
Civilian is the key word here. Too many things to go sideways.
Don't see any good ruling from the ATF any time soon.
Personally, I'd target the Military to get things off the ground
for your venture, It would be less capital expenditure towards
those people wearing suits and ties.

Yeah I'm starting to think this is dead in the water before it arrives at the ATF to review. I reached out to the few people left who make custom dies and they either can't make a die (no expertise in a bullet design like this) or they are still under DoE contracts prohibiting them from working on a project like this. Really is a shame how the government blocks us from having something that was supposed to be legal for us.

 

[Fuj]

Look up Ryan Cleckner firearms attorney.