Surgeon Receiver Problems after the move to Arizona...

[Matt in Virginia]

Gentlemen,
I heard back from a friend today, who has been working with Surgeon Receivers for years, that there has most definitely been some serious QC problems with Surgeon of Arizona. Specifically XL Actions(shipped mind you) without a feed ramps, bolts with unfinished lug surfaces, and bolt stops that were too long. In short they have turned a largely bulletproof product into an open question...

He, at least for the time being, is switching over to another product which is not all something he wants to do, however, if you can't depend on the product you can't depend on the product.

This is leaving Defiance Machine amongst other to pick up this end of the market. I LIKE Defiance but damned if I am excited about building a $4500 rifle on an action named Deviant. Sounds like a pedophile...

Any thoughts on here from those who have seen problems come and go? I hate to prognosticate, however, every company that Remington/Freedom has taken over seems to be diminished in the long run. Can was say the same for general industry take overs? I think of where Nesika Bay was 15 years ago and where they are today... Which gets back to Glenn Harrison at Defiance...

Your input would be appreciated...

Regards, Matt.

 

[280man]

Surgeon Actions are still made in Oklahoma as far as I know. They may be packaging and shipping them outta Phoenix but the same guys in the same shop are machining them in Prague.

 

[338 Mollett]

Bat or Bernard !

 

[tac284]

Interesting, I did not know that they moved the bulk to Arizona. I had purchased 5 actions right about the time SAC bought them, guess that was a good call.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/tag/surgeon-rifles/

copied from above article

In 2004, Surgeon Rifles was born and they started making both actions and a few custom rifles and over time both the number of action and complete rifles they produce had tremendous growth. In fact, over the past couple years you haven’t even been able to buy a Surgeon Action. Surgeon didn’t have the capacity to produce enough actions to satisfy the demand for their complete rifle build and 3rd party gunsmiths. However, at the first of the year Surgeon moved the bulk of their operation from the small town of Prague, Oklahoma to their new facilities in Arizona. In 2011, Surgeon Rifles was purchased by Strategic Armory Corps, who also now owns McMillan Firearms and they figured there could be some synergy between those groups, although they have no plans of changing either of the products.

While the move to Arizona initially introduced some chaos and extended wait times, it looks like Surgeon Rifles is now settled in and hitting on all cylinders. Just a couple months ago, Surgeon began selling actions again, which indicates their production capacity is now aligned with the demand. I’ve also noticed an increase in the number of spec rifle builds listed on their website, which may mean quicker turnaround times on custom builds

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Surgeon Actions are still made in Oklahoma as far as I know. They may be packaging and shipping them outta Phoenix but the same guys in the same shop are machining them in Prague.

Nopey...

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Interesting, I did not know that they moved the bulk to Arizona. I had purchased 5 actions right about the time SAC bought them, guess that was a good call.

You don't want to sell an old 591R by chance? Will pay a premium, within reason, for a Prague made action. I only need one...

Respectfully, Matt Garrett
Chesapeake, Virginia
757-581-6270

 

[Keith Kilby]

Matt,

Defiance makes actions for several custom shops and marks them as that shop wishes. The ATF calls it a marking variance. You may can get Glen and the guys at Defiance to mark actions for you as you choose. They do all the paper work for the variance from what I understand.
I personally have a Rebel actioned rifle and while I do not own Stiller, Surgeon, BAT etc I have had my hands on them. I like the Defiance and will use them again.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Kelbly Atlas actions are really nice.

 

[tac284]

Interesting, I did not know that they moved the bulk to Arizona. I had purchased 5 actions right about the time SAC bought them, guess that was a good call.

You don't want to sell an old 591R by chance? Will pay a premium, within reason, for a Prague made action. I only need one...

Respectfully, Matt Garrett
Chesapeake, Virginia
757-581-6270

Sorry Matt, 3 of the acrions are already guns (one was a single shot). The other 2 are to be built on soon also.
Since Surgeon's takeover i have switched to Defiance actions. Not because of the takeover but just to try another maker. We have been very happy with them and the customer service is great!

 

[tac284]

Kelbly Atlas actions are really nice.

I also have one Atlas in a single shot. What Eric says is true, very nice action!

 

[bsumoba]

BAT or Defiance!

 

[280man]

Surgeon Actions are still made in Oklahoma as far as I know. They may be packaging and shipping them outta Phoenix but the same guys in the same shop are machining them in Prague.

Nopey...

Im not looking to start a internet feud here but you might double check your sources. I live in Oklahoma and know some of these guys personally. The rifle assembly work moved to Phoenix but the mills that build the actions are still here unless they moved in the last month or so.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Gentlemen,
I greatly appreciate everyones input. It is greatly valued...

280man,
I would certainly hope this discussion would not lead to a feud of any sort. If I'm mistaken I certainly defer to your superior grasp on the situation. I based that comment off of a Riflesmith that has worked with their actions in goodly numbers for years. He is not one to casually make such a mistake. That said I will get an answer on that...

Though that does not address the QC issues that moving might. As a matter of fact it leaves more unanswered questions altogether...

Regaards, Matt Garrett

 

[Matt in Virginia]

280man,
I don't put a whole lot of faith in this particular source, however, it parrots what I was told fwiw: This is the Precision Rifles Blog...

"Surgeon Actions

The 2nd most popular action was the Surgeon 591 Action. The popularity of Surgeon actions was cut by 50% this year, which was surprising. We saw in the post on gunsmiths, that the popularity of their complete rifle builds had shrunk significantly among this crowd as well. I’m not certain what drove these changes. The Surgeon shop moved from Prague, OK to Phoenix, AZ during the first part of 2014, which caused some initial delays. However, they seem to be hitting on all cylinders at this point. In fact, a few months ago Surgeon started selling actions again. For the past couple years, if you wanted a Surgeon action you had to buy a complete Surgeon rifle. But they’ve apparently reached a point in their production where they can satisfy demand for their rifles and also sell actions to other gunsmiths. So I’ll be anxious to get next year’s results to see if this was just a temporary dip, because in 2012 and 2013 almost half of the shooters in the top 50 were sporting a Surgeon action."

 

[Matt in Virginia]

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[Matt in Virginia]

I live in Oklahoma and know some of these guys personally.

280man,
Being you know the guys personally, and live down the road, would you mind finding out if they are making actions in Prague or Phoenix? You might also inquire about the QC issues...

Nothing like having someone with inside knowledge on the scene...

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270

 

[Jim See]

Matt in Virginia,

My name is Jim See and I am the customer service and quality control inspector at the Surgeon action manufacturing shop in Prague Oklahoma. We did mistakenly send out ONE XL action with-out a feed ramp cut. Unfortunately it slipped through our inspection process and we have thus rectified that situation with the customer. It is also unfortunate that by the time it was noticed by the gunsmith he had already built it into a finished rifle making the situation a little more time consuming for the gunsmith.

Our actions are still made in Prague OK and shipped out of Prague OK to the end user.
Our parent company Strategic Arms Corp has no affiliation with the freedom group.
In March of 2014 Surgeon rifle production moved to Phoenix AZ, after the purchase of McMillan Firearms by SAC.
Action manufacturing remains in the same shop where Preston started Surgeon Rifles.

As customer service representative, I handle all and any issues that commonly come up from action sales and rifles built on our actions by other gunsmiths. I was an independent custom rifle builder for 6 years so I understand the frustration some gunsmiths may feel when they get a bad part, understand that we attempt 100% quality assurance at Surgeon Rifles while maintaining a lifetime warranty.

As far as the too long of a bolt stop. That could arise out of someone ordering a WSM cut 591 action. This allows a Wyatts internal mag box to be used and requires that the bolt be drawn back about .100" more than usual and thus requires a different bolt stop. There is always a small chance that during packaging the standard bolt stop is mistakenly put in the package. If that happens we are sorry and send the corrected part at no charge as soon as we are notified. In the last 6 months I can remember this occurring once.

As with any quality issues; weather it be the gunsmith, action maker, stock or barrel manufacturer, they expect and wish to receive immediate calls of any and all quality issues, this allows us to take corrective action immediately and check current inventories for similar problems, thus eliminating the source.

Once again to those who have had one of these isolated issues I do apologize, if there is anything I can do please call the Prague OK office, I am here to help all our customers through any issues they may have.

Respectfully;
Jim See
Surgeon Rifles LLC
Prague Oklahoma.

 

[butchlambert]

Thanks Jim,
This should put this issue to bed. Kinda like some other post on here occasionally, just complaints without contacting the vendor.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Jim,
I certainly appreciate you taking the time to address the issues. I am really a fan of the 591R as well as the 1086 and hence was REALLY disappointed to hear about the relatively new QC issues.

I was not under the illusion you were under the Freedom Group, however, I was concerned that the sale of Surgeon to a larger holding company may negatively impact the quality control that Mr. Pritchett was so famous for.... When word of the action issues came up, which I had never heard before, those concerns seemed to be better founded...

I am glad to hear the mistakes were singular occurrence problems. Seems odd that only one action would come of the CNC Machine with only one fault and the others were good to go...

Butch Lambert,
The reason I did not contact Surgeon, Inc., directly was that I thought going straight to the gunsmiths collective mouth(so to speak), who use the actions regularly, would be a better source of information. I dunno about your past experiences, however, getting a PR person on the phone to give you a realistic take on what problems a manufacturer was/is having is generally both difficult and inaccurate.

280man,
You were right and I was wrong. Appreciate the heads up...

Regards, Matt.

 

[butchlambert]

Matt,
You will find that Jim is a good and straight forward person to deal with. Good luck on your project.