Kevin has just returned from competing and representing Lapua/VihtaVuori at Camp Perry and I'm just back from the NRA Silhouette Championships in Ridgway, PA. We'll get on this right away. Thanks for your patience.
Adam
Adam
warning to all....Vit 550 major problems
- Thread starter jager408
- Start date
If it was a year old, I would call it an old topic. But being a month old.. eh... give it time to see what happens.
jonbearman
I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
I just want to thank the original poster jaeger for the heads up as I was just about to order some to try it.I will watch this thread and see what comes of VV resonding in a responsible manner dealing with life threatening issue's such as this. I only hope they make darn sure that there isnt an issue with powder degradation.I have powder that is 20 plus years old and use it regularly with no problems.
Viht N550 is very widely used in the UK in F/TR and Match Rifle being the favourite propellant for 185gn and heavier bullets. Most F/TR shooters use pretty heavy loads and the Match Rifle (.308W at 1,000 - 1,200 in the UK / Canada and up to 1,500yd in Australia) people use some REALLY heavy loads that must be right on the limit. Any powder degradation that gives higher pressures would very quickly show up in the loads being used, but I've never heard of this.
The OP mentions using electronic scales and checking / calibrating them. Did that involve check weights? Nearly every near handloading disaster I've come across in the last two or three years has involved this type of scale. A friend nearly blew up a new 6.5X47L, coincidentally with N550, with his intial test loads using charges weighed on electronic scales that had previously performed OK. A subsequent cross-check against a good old fashioned set of beam scales showed the electronics were reading around 3gn low.
If the powder isn't giving off an acrid solvent type odour and/or showing other signs of deterioration, I'd reckon this is the least likely cause.
Laurie,
York, England
The OP mentions using electronic scales and checking / calibrating them. Did that involve check weights? Nearly every near handloading disaster I've come across in the last two or three years has involved this type of scale. A friend nearly blew up a new 6.5X47L, coincidentally with N550, with his intial test loads using charges weighed on electronic scales that had previously performed OK. A subsequent cross-check against a good old fashioned set of beam scales showed the electronics were reading around 3gn low.
If the powder isn't giving off an acrid solvent type odour and/or showing other signs of deterioration, I'd reckon this is the least likely cause.
Laurie,
York, England
Just to add to the VV "bashing." I had a similar experience with VV N160. I bought a new tub of 8lb N160 along with two 1lb containers from a different lot to try with my 243WIN. The max load listed was 42.0gr and I started with this charge and worked down from there. To make a long story short, 42.0 gr was WAY too much powder. Not only was I blowing primers (for the 1st time ever), but I was also melting my brand new Lapua brass to the bolt face. I consider myself very conservative and careful. Clearly, there is something amiss with VV powder or their loading charts. I have never had this problem with Hodgdon powders. I have settled upon a charge of 38.7gr of N160.....far below what they list as a max charge. I love Lapua brass...but won't be buying any more VV powder.
oh....and I'm using a $1000 Sartorius scale with checkweights used: yes I'm confident the charge weights are accurate.
oh....and I'm using a $1000 Sartorius scale with checkweights used: yes I'm confident the charge weights are accurate.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
scott,
I am surprised as a experienced re-loader you started at Max load and worked down, most do it the other way around. I am not chastising you or trying to be a A** ,...just saying it's not considered the proper way to work up a load and it bit you, I don't see that as being VV fault, take care.
Wayne.
I am surprised as a experienced re-loader you started at Max load and worked down, most do it the other way around. I am not chastising you or trying to be a A** ,...just saying it's not considered the proper way to work up a load and it bit you, I don't see that as being VV fault, take care.
Wayne.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
bozo699 said:
I was thinking the same thing Wayne. He did something wrong and somehow it's Vihtavuori's fault! And to top it off, he's "bashing" them now.
jonbearman said:
You guys are assuming that the powder was at fault. I don't know if it was, but I have had the same problem with other manufacturers powders, and after looking deeper into it, I realized it was something I did wrong. Like now having enough neck clearance, that will increase pressures, believe me!
scotharr said:
Do any other forum members see a flaw in his consideration?
I had a reply all ready to post to Laurie's comment yesterday, then deleted it after I read it once more. Too much soap box.
After reading scotharr's post I suggest that we as shooters & reloaders put a lot of trust in the capabilities and motivation of those who supply us with the materials & tools we use. Few if any of us could do on our own what they make possible by providing us with what we otherwise would be unable or unwilling to make for ourselves.
Taking as gospel that (a) manufacturer's suggested maximum load is a safe load without any other factors being considered to me is irresponsible. Chambers and rifles - not to mention scales and loading practices - vary too much for a published suggested maximum load to be considered a safe place to begin load testing.
I myself use a popular brand & model of digital scale (tried two others that were found lacking, and an RCBS beam model early on) that I frequently calibrate. In addition to weighing charges I use the scale to weight bullets, lacking dedicated check weights other than the supplied calibration item. In every case the scale indicates bullet weights within +/- 0.5 grains of what's printed on the bullet packaging (with the majority reading within +/- 0.04 grains) whether I'm weighing 50 grain .233 or 210 grain .308. As such I trust what my scale tells me when I weigh propellant charges.
I still wouldn't start with suggested max loads when evaluating a new or changed lot of a particular propellant. I've found both instances where maximum loads are too low (according to what my chronometer and fired brass indicates) and mid-range loads are too high to trust published numbers too much.
The internet and forums such as this have wrought wonderful changes to the environment shooters & reloaders were used to. Still it takes patience & a spirit of adventure to both locate then "weed out" the reliable information that's available from the chaff that's out there to mislead the unwary.
It only takes one kaBOOM to change your life forever after... or end it.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Erik,Erik Cortina said:
I had the same problem with neck clearance and sticky bolt lift in a 6*284 when my load was mid to lower end, turned some more off the necks and problem went away, took a while though, all the measuring tools I own, years and years of reloading and it took two or three VERY frustrating days and the day before the match I finally figured it out, sometimes we overlook the painfully obvious
As far as powder going bad I personally in 20 + years of reloading have only encountered bad powder once. A young friend of mine at the time, grandfather had just passed away and Steve inherited a lot of his personal things, the old man was into reloading and had quite a bit of stuff, there was a wide mouth three gallon glass jar 3/4 full of unmarked powder, Steve was scared to use it but told me his grandad told him he got it after WWII and used it in his 06, I figured it had to be 4831 and worked up a load for my 25-06, it worked fine and I used it for several years in several rifles, it had finally got down to where it would easily fit it a gallon jar so I changed it out, didn't use anymore the rest of the winter the following spring my son ran out of coyote loads for his .257AI so I told him where the powder was and what to do, he was 15 and had been loading for several years so I saw no problems, a couple hours later he said he had a terrible headache and was going to go lay down said he had fifty charged and wondered if I would seat them for him, I of course said okay and headed for the loading room when I opened the door I was overtaken with a Nitro Glycerin type of smell I looked at the jar and the remaining powder was rust colored and wasn't pasty but yet didn't separate and flow like powder when I picked up the jar and rolled it around looking at the powder it just all stuck together, I have no idea how he got it into the cases. I immediately discarded it and was scared to death as to what might have happened if he had touched one off, I was going to scold him for not paying attention then realized who was really at fault, but did discuss it with him later. The moral of the story the powder lasted more then 50 years stored incorrectly most of it and it worked flawlessly for all of it, then in just a few months went from good to bad, so I guess the op's powder could have went bad but I find it hard to believe.
Wayne.
My friend has an electronic scale that he paid a few hundred bucks for and could never get consistent reloads ,last week he calls me up and tells me he locked up the bolt and cant open it.
So he brought the rifle over and I got it opened up using a brass mallet for taping.
It didn't ruin anything the extractor was fine as was the ejector ,the primer was gone.
He knew right away it was the scale and we compared it to a rcbs 505 and it was at least 3gr low on everything we tried even after calibrating with the weight we dont know why so it went in the trash.
Glad to hear you didn't get hurt ,to bad it had to be at a match I also shoot f-class and have not been able to shoot a few for other reasons.
Once I brought the wrong amo and once I didn't bring any :-[ .
So he brought the rifle over and I got it opened up using a brass mallet for taping.
It didn't ruin anything the extractor was fine as was the ejector ,the primer was gone.
He knew right away it was the scale and we compared it to a rcbs 505 and it was at least 3gr low on everything we tried even after calibrating with the weight we dont know why so it went in the trash.
Glad to hear you didn't get hurt ,to bad it had to be at a match I also shoot f-class and have not been able to shoot a few for other reasons.
Once I brought the wrong amo and once I didn't bring any :-[ .
Looks like this was settled behind closed doors and we will never hear the resolution!!
to add another two cents to the digital scale bash tangent we seem to have gone off on here--we should remember that like all things the cheap ones generally work less well than the more expensive ones and must be used as directed--that is calibrated EVERY use with the provided check weights (if no check weights come with it--it's a cheapie) the power source is clean--no electric motors running on the same circuit---static is controlled and the same breezes that mess up my beam scale will affect my digital.
A lot of people tend to just jump right in to using things--especially electronics for some reason-- without reading and understanding and following the instructions...the digitals are not magic --and they need to be warmed up before use--something that almost no one does it seems-it will make a difference. and----everything works until it breaks- scales included.
A lot of people tend to just jump right in to using things--especially electronics for some reason-- without reading and understanding and following the instructions...the digitals are not magic --and they need to be warmed up before use--something that almost no one does it seems-it will make a difference. and----everything works until it breaks- scales included.
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