Super short mags ....... A waste of time?

[ultramagbrion]

Hey Merry Christmas to everyone......I'm new to this board and I'd thought of asking you knowing types a straight-forward question.

Ive an old 788 Rem my good friend is smithing into a 6BR.Should be ready by '08 and Im looking to play with a WSSM next.....243 most likely. I love the looks of the super shorts and Im not really worried about erosion as I dont plan to be pumping a bazillion rounds through her.

Ive been stockpiling ammo and brass when I find it cheap at shows and shops,never actually had a rifle in the caliber yet....Im just wacky that way)and had been looking for a Coyote used around here in my travels...with no luck. Theres a few pencil barreled Shadows and such in the $400 range to be had so I supposed Ill have my buddy order a barrel next year.

I guess unless I hear an avalanche of bad remarks Im going ahead with the build but Ive not got alot of time to be reading and searching for barrel makers and length advice.

Ill be shooting from the bags or a rest so weight is no issue.Im also a big believer in barrel-block set-ups with ''skeleton type'' stocks., Which is what Ill be using on the 788-6BR mentioned above)

Got any suggestions or am I completly waisting my time and money?

 

[ultramagbrion]

I understand about the feeding problems, however nothing Im going to build will have a mag..........single shot only.

What problems did you experience with your Brownings??

Im going searching for info now while I kill some more time

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

A controversy in the making

I'll give you my opinion of the WSSM cartridges, but remember that it's only worth what you've paid for it even though it's gleaned from observing the trials and tribulations that some experienced shooter/reloaders have encountered.

Factory loaded ammo rarely equals its advertised ballistics. You don't shoot factory ammo? Try reloading for one. The cases stretch so badly after two ot three reloads that they won't chamber. Try full length resizing? That short fat brass is so thick that it's real hard to set the shoulders back. More brass gets thrown away than gets loaded. When questioned the Winchester engineers,while they were still employed) claimed that they "do not design cartridges with reloading in mind".

Why mess with a .243 WSSM when you can have a 6mmBR or one of the other good cartridges in this bore size? Why build a 6.5 version of the WSSM when the 6.5x47, the new 6.5 Creedmore, or a multitude of other proven wildcat 6.5 chamberings are available?

WSSM brass is nowhere near the quality that you can get in other chamberings from Lapua, Norma and the like. WSSM brass may very well disappear from the marketplace in coming years due to its unpopularity.

In short, why bother other than just to have something different?

 

[6BRonwheels]

I agree with Spotcheck Billy, wssm brass is terrible to work with. I have had a Stealth II in 243 WSSM for a few years. Before the throat vanished after about 1000 rounds, it did shoot very well. I could routinly do five-shot groups at .2". After about 3 firings of the brass, it was helpful to pound the bolt closed with a hammer, or have a 300 lb. person jump up and down on the bolt handle to get it closed. Once the round was fired, a crow bar would come in real handy to get the bolt open. In short, in my opinion Winchester should have paid the customer for buying rifles chambered in WSSM.

 

[ultramagbrion]

Thanks gents,some issues Id not thought of were brought up with the brass.
Ive picked up piles of once fired stuff over the past few years and about 500 rds of new ammo, and still have no rifle to use it with )

I did a search......actually a few of them, and didnt turn up much. My computer foo' isnt the greatest either, but I keep reading when I find the time.

Thanks again......UltraB

 

[billmo]

I have purchased one of each of the wssm rifles. The first one and the only one I have left is the 25 wssm in an A-bolt SS. I only hunt with it so I don't worry too much about the brass problems but it is evident. I purchased the 223 wssm in the Browning Varmint and was not happy at all with it. Accuracy was just not there along with a whole lot of other aspects that I was looking for. I recently sold the new 243 wssm coyote to a guy on here. A friend of mine bought it and never got around to putting a scope on it and jumped me to buy it from him. I did, and it lay in my gun room closet in the box until just recently.
I guess I was just not interested enough to put a scope on it and play with it. Now the .300 and the .270 wsm s are doing fine for me. They both are in the A-bolt SS and are used to hunt with and don't get shot on the bench much at all. Bill

 

[2644ever]

A few years ago, right upon hearing about the release of the 25 WSSM, and not having got any brass in my possession yet, I had Dave Manson grind me a reamer for the wildcat 6.5-.25.
I chambered a Douglas with it and tried it with Lapua's 139 moly bullets.I was impressed by the efficiency and the accuracy of this wildcat. It is the equivalent of the .260 REM in a more compact form. The only problem was with the chamber that was not tight enough at the case head location, so the reamer was returned for alterations and this was taken care of. This 25 brass seems very durable and, in my opinion, should be very easy to work with, provided the chambering is tight.

 

[BillK]

I haven't shot my 6.5-243wssms that long but it has done ok for me. I place third in the world open at williamsport with it. I would have finished higher overall if I had my heavy gun bugs worked out. Martin Dailey has been near the top of the aggs at williamsport with a 6.5-25wssm for a few years now. I have been in the money with my gun 2 out of the three times I have shot it in competition. I admit that I am not a great shooter but this cartridge makes shooting/reloading easy. The third shoot that I didn't do well in I had shot a faulty lot of bullets that I never shot before. With a fairly full case,48.8gr) of re22 my gun shoots 140gr bullets at 3070fps. I don't know but for an idiot like me it has been the most idiot proof cartridge I have shot!!!!

 

[ultramagbrion]

Ive been wondering if a 6.5-WSSM had been run yet,I assumed someone would have tried it) and am looking forward to build one of my own .
Idiot-proof is just what I need,LOL)

 

[BillK]

ultra- My reamer has a .300 neck diameter and so does Martin's. I got my reamer made by PTG. Good luck in your endeavor!!!

 

[ultramagbrion]

If either of you would like to sell your reamers,Im interested.
Thanks for neck diam info.
My smith said my barrel just came in for my 6br build so Ill be busy for awhile.

 

[mikecr]

If you're going to turn the necks for a .300, you might as well turn them for a .290
With this you'll have 'normal' thickness in the necks, which is desirable.

Also, purchase the brass up front.
Measure it and go .001 over all dimensions desired with YOUR reamer.
Have your gun builder chamber Wilson seater & neck sizer blanks when he does the barrel.
Have him make you a gizzy for headspace measurement.
Fireform and send a few off to JLC for a custom bump die.

The brass will last forever.
I now have over 20 reloads on my first batch. Zero growth, tight pockets, and has yet to need annealing.
Outside the challenges of neck turning, and shoulder bumping, this really is an easy cartridge.

 

[SnakeEye]

Hey Merry Christmas to everyone......I'm new to this board and I'd thought of asking you knowing types a straight-forward question.

Ive an old 788 Rem my good friend is smithing into a 6BR.Should be ready by '08 and Im looking to play with a WSSM next.....243 most likely. I love the looks of the super shorts and Im not really worried about erosion as I dont plan to be pumping a bazillion rounds through her.

Ive been stockpiling ammo and brass when I find it cheap at shows and shops,never actually had a rifle in the caliber yet....Im just wacky that way)and had been looking for a Coyote used around here in my travels...with no luck. Theres a few pencil barreled Shadows and such in the $400 range to be had so I supposed Ill have my buddy order a barrel next year.

I guess unless I hear an avalanche of bad remarks Im going ahead with the build but Ive not got alot of time to be reading and searching for barrel makers and length advice.

Ill be shooting from the bags or a rest so weight is no issue.Im also a big believer in barrel-block set-ups with ''skeleton type'' stocks., Which is what Ill be using on the 788-6BR mentioned above)

Got any suggestions or am I completly waisting my time and money?

Run like the wind and don't look back! I made the mistake of building a 243 wssm and about broke the handle off my Bat SV action. That has got to be the sorriest brass I've ever seen. Anything made from the BR case is hands down better. Try the 6MM BRX a wonderful accurate round.

VARMINTS FOR FUN

 

[mikecr]

You built it and/or loaded it wrong..

And if you had ever measured the brass, you would have found that it's as good as ANY brass made.

 

[ultramagbrion]

"Broke the handle?"

Something wasnt right

 

[ultramagbrion]

If you're going to turn the necks for a .300, you might as well turn them for a .290
With this you'll have 'normal' thickness in the necks, which is desirable.
Sounds logical to me......

Also, purchase the brass up front.

Got a pile of Win brass as well as factory ammo,one of these days Im going to pull all the bullets


Measure it and go .001 over all dimensions desired with YOUR reamer.

OK...get my OWN reamer made....,or someone elses and grind the neck down to required size)

Have your gun builder chamber Wilson seater & neck sizer blanks when he does the barrel.

...again, sounds logical...
Have him make you a gizzy for headspace measurement.

uh....a what?
Fireform and send a few off to JLC for a custom bump die.

uh....to who?

The brass will last forever.
I now have over 20 reloads on my first batch. Zero growth, tight pockets, and has yet to need annealing.
Outside the challenges of neck turning, and shoulder bumping, this really is an easy cartridge.

It sounds pretty straight forward.
I've got an unexplainable attraction to this cartridge design,and am going to do some experimenting regardless of the nay-sayers.

Thanks for input......from everyone.

 

[mikecr]

It pays to hold your own reamers. And they're relatively cheap.

When your barrel is cut to finish length, the smith can take that inch or so cut off and hit it with your reamer to the shoulder. Thats your headspace gizzy. You drop it over fired and sized cases to measure distance from case head to shoulder datum with calipers. If you can talk him into it, have him cut a window for bullet seating checks also.
Depending on your loads, you'll need to bump the shoulders after 4-5 reloads, and forever more with that brass. With a tight chamber,w/resp to unfired dimensions), and rational loads, you'll need no FL sizing, or trimming -ever.

I have Jim Carstensen at JLC Precision make my bump dies.
He offers bump, FL and neck sizing,w/std bushings) in one die if desired. He can also use YOUR finish reamer to do this.

2 mistakes people make with this cartridge is NO TURN chambers, and use of standard actions.
-The brass is .019 - .025" thick at the necks and springs back to last week! So turning it is a big chore.
But with these necks in stock form, and excess neck sizing, bullet tension will walk off both ends of the scale before long. This leads to a need to anneal frequently, which ain't gonna fix things, because it isn't controlled enough.
-The factories offer WSSM guns in large diameter actions. And it's not a short cartridge with ~140s seated. They do this to get enough barrel metal around the chamber. Otherwise chamber,and brass) expansion, followed by springback, is too high. This leads to hammering bolts open, seemingly from 'peakyness' of pressures, and disrespect for the cartridge.

You don't have to make these mistakes.

 

[BillK]

I agree with the having your own reamer. And no I would not part with mine due to the success I have had in short order.
The 243wssm brass I got was not as good as the 25wssm brass that Martin Dailey had gotten but is definitely livable. I would not go under a .296 reamer for this cartridge. I shoot a 6.5-284 shehane that has a .290 neck and it is more finnicky than the thicker neck variants. I usually anneal everything I shoot every other firing, just to keep from having problems.

 

[65fan]

never had any problems with my 6.5/25wssm,just need more space to hang wood on my wall.

 

[Rock]

My 6.5/25wssm is amazing. Built on a win wssm action and pacnor barrel. It shoots embarassingly well, almost too good to talk about. How's 1.5"-3", 5 shot groups at 565 yds sound, for a non benchrest setup? Brass has been good as well.