Straight walled vs bottleneck accuracy

[LHH]

Do straight walled cases have the same accuracy potential as bottlenecks?
Assuming same chambers, seating depth and all of those variables, does one have an clear advantage or is everything that really matters?
Do necks and shoulders add accuracy vs straight wall and crimp?

 

[Twicepop]

They head space differently, the bottle neck case head spaces on the shoulder at the datum line, the straight wall head spaces on the rim. I don't know for sure if the straight wall case has the accuracy potential that a bottle neck case has or not. Bottle neck cases can be sized to very exacting tolerances, the rimmed case would have to hold rim thickness to the same exacting tolerances to be just as competitive by that way of comparing them. To overcome any minute differences in rim thickness, the bullets would need to be jammed into the rifling an exact amount to hold each round against the bolt face exactly the same. Then comes the bullets, most uber-accurate guns today shoot sleek very low drag bullets of small caliber. A straight wall case for target shooting usually has bullets of .32 caliber up through .45 caliber. Back in the early 1900s up through the 1920s there were some straight wall cases of .22 through 28-30 calibers, but because of the powders at the time, they didn't catch on.
I've read about some shooting activities that use rimmed cases being extremely accurate. There was/is a cast bullet bench rest organization that many of the guns use these. They had a run of 30-30 cases produced with small primer pockets, and called it the .30 American. There was and maybe still is The Diana Society (Diana, the goddess of the hunt), they used bolt action shotguns as bench rest guns, and I read where many of these would rival the accuracy of bench rest competition guns. So I suppose if the same care and precision used in making uber-accurate bottle neck rifle ammunition was applied to straight wall cases, plus the selection of components that it could/would be just as accurate.

 

[epc308]

The straight wall cases are capable of remarkable accuracy. Go back through the records of the late 1800s and early 1900s. You will see bench rest groups of 1/4-1/3", 10 shot groups, made with cast bullets and black powder, or later, duplex loads with a few grains of early smokeless as a priming charge next to the primer with the rest of the case full of black. They used a metal rest clamped to the barrel(try that with a modern bench rifle!), sometimes shoulder supported the buttstock, sometimes it sat in a bag.
Obviously, these aren't single digit groups, but then, the rifles were so much closer to what everyman shot than the completely specialized bench guns of today.
By the way, it took decades to unseat some of those straight wall, cast bullet/black powder groups with a bottleneck, jacketed, smokeless load.

 

[mikecr]

Muzzle velocity, and muzzle pressure variations come to mind with any straight wall of hunting capacity.
Until the powder is burned there would be nothing holding it back at the chamber. The so far unburned powder would form into a slug, adding to projectile mass, and with a varying density and local pressures down the bore, that powder slug would burn differently all along the way. Much of it merely flashing at the muzzle, causing a secondary pressure spike to slap released bullets.
Very inefficient.

These are internal ballistic challenges, especially for LR intent.
But mankind loves challenges!

 

[LHH]

Have a Walther 32 S&W long that is incredibly accurate and 32's have been used for Olympic target shooting for decades. I wondered if the accuracy comes from match grade ammo/ bullets or the fact that pistols are match grade as or is it something about the 32 that is inherently accurate?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I think we have ventured way off past the cheap seats in left field now. If a straight wall case was accurate youd hear of people using them for true accuracy work, not just saying they shoot good. They shoot good compared to what? How would a 6br fare against a 45-70 at 100yds or even 25yds?

 

[Richard Coody]

Well so far as I can think of right now is .22 rimfire. They are doing some.pretty impressive shooting with this diminutive straight wall case. No reason I can see that that couldn't be scaled up to say 6mm. Sure would be a long skinny case to hold the powder volume. It seems short and fat cases have an advantage. Would it be competitive with the 6ppc? Presently not much out there is.

 

[LHH]

Let me try to be more detailed in my question:
Bottleneck designs are needed to use bullets smaller than the cases.
Straight walled cases don't need the same neck and shoulder as bullets are a similar size to the case.
I wondered if the bottleneck design has some other inherent advantage over straight-walled other the obvious one of using smaller bullets(compared to case size) at higher speeds. While this alone is a huge advantage, does any other advantage exist?
Straight walled will never keep up due to limited BC and speed, this is just a theoretical question.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Let me try to be more detailed in my question:
Bottleneck designs are needed to use bullets smaller than the cases.
Straight walled cases don't need the same neck and shoulder as bullets are a similar size to the case.
I wondered if the bottleneck design has some other inherent advantage over straight-walled other the obvious one of using smaller bullets(compared to case size) at higher speeds. While this alone is a huge advantage, does any other advantage exist?
Straight walled will never keep up due to limited BC and speed, this is just a theoretical question.

Just changing shoulder angle changes the characteristics of a cartridge, so that neck funnel does make a difference

 

[mikecr]

Other than forcing most powder to burn in the chamber, I don't think there is an advantage of bottle necked cartridges over straight walled.

I think that if you spot welded cross members within a straight walled case (i.e. rebar), to hold the powder back, or,, if utilizing front ignition, a straight walled design could produce results to reconsider.

 

[dellet]

In theory there’s is no difference. In a practical sense there are a few reasons a bottle neck cartridge is more efficient.

It wasn't lack of accuracy that killed straight wall cartridges, it was lack of velocity. If people were totally honest, velocity makes up for a certain amount of shooting skills or lack of.

Here is one of the most accurate cartridges of its day, 28-30-120 next to a 270 Winchester. Imagine the throw you would need on a bolt action to cycle a 6" cartridge if you wanted the same velocity for bore size.

There was also a 25-21-60 and a 22-15-60. Caliber-grains black powder-bullet weight. All of the cases for these cartridges are over 2" long

The 22-15-60 had a case and overall lengths longer than a 222 Magnum for reference, with much less than half the velocity.

If the time and money was spent to develop the chambers to peak potential of the cartridge, bullet design to maximize the velocity window and basically cartridge specific powders to optimize efficiency of energy, I have no doubt that straight wall cartridges could be as accurate as bottle neck within certain distances.

The limiting factor would be the the shooters ability to read conditions and make finer adjustments that normally would not be needed due to shear horsepower of velocity.

It would be interesting to compare a 22LR to a 6br at 25-50 yards. And then to make it more interesting, limit the 6br to 1100 fps.

 

[Ggmac]

I like what twicepop said . But unfortunately we have forgotten or never learned the pope secrets . They usually used one case and reloaded it and seated the bullet via the muzzle .
To sum up the answer , its no . Even case design can and does effect accuracy . Bill calfee did a good test , 6 tcu? Vs 6 ppc . He was sure there was no difference and prefrenced the 6tcu . He realized after testing he was wrong . Its all in one of his books , a good read during these times .

 

[epc308]

I think we have ventured way off past the cheap seats in left field now. If a straight wall case was accurate youd hear of people using them for true accuracy work, not just saying they shoot good. They shoot good compared to what? How would a 6br fare against a 45-70 at 100yds or even 25yds?

We aren’t even comparing apples to oranges here, but grass clippings to gravel. It’s all relative to the game you play. To take one more step back from straight wall cartridge rifles, a guy I used to work for shoots a muzzleloader at 1000yds and doesn’t seem to have any problems with accuracy if his world championship medals mean anything.
PS- they do use them for Long range accuracy work. There are long range competitions nationwide at 600-1000yds for straight wall cartridge rifles. The Whittington Center has them, there is the Quigley Shoot in, I think Montana, where it isn’t even known distances, to name but 2 if the more we’ll known events.

 

[epc308]

I like what twicepop said . But unfortunately we have forgotten or never learned the pope secrets . They usually used one case and reloaded it and seated the bullet via the muzzle .
To sum up the answer , its no . Even case design can and does effect accuracy . Bill calfee did a good test , 6 tcu? Vs 6 ppc . He was sure there was no difference and prefrenced the 6tcu . He realized after testing he was wrong . Its all in one of his books , a good read during these times .

I have Stevens 44 1/2 set up with a false muzzle the same as how Harry Pope made them. Shooting that way is a very nice way to spend a day at the range shooting as our predecessors did, trying to relearn things that have been all but lost in the attempt to make things better.
But, define better...

 

[Dusty Stevens]

We aren’t even comparing apples to oranges here, but grass clippings to gravel. It’s all relative to the game you play. To take one more step back from straight wall cartridge rifles, a guy I used to work for shoots a muzzleloader at 1000yds and doesn’t seem to have any problems with accuracy if his world championship medals mean anything.
PS- they do use them for Long range accuracy work. There are long range completions nationwide at 600-1000yds for straight wall cartridge rifles. The Whittington Center has them, there is the Quigley Shoot in, I think Montana, where it isn’t even known distances, to name but 2 if the more we’ll known events.

Ok, a 12ga slug shoots real good compared to a 12ga slug But nobody would use a straightwall case when you could use a modern design at the same match is what im saying

 

[epc308]

Ok, a 12ga slug shoots real good compared to a 12ga slug But nobody would use a straightwall case when you could use a modern design at the same match is what im saying

True, but I wouldn’t race my ‘95 Civic against a big block Camaro either. Again, everything is relative to the game you play.

 

[bozo699]

This may be off topic a little but I have been watching Mark and Sam after work, there was a thread on here last week about them on YouTube so I watched it,they have many short YouTube clips and a couple of them were on 45/70 and 12 gauge slug and sabots some at 7 to 800 yds on out to 1850 with the 45/70 off hand hitting a 24”x24” plate!.. anyone who can hit a 24” plate off hand with any rifle has my respect!... and a 18” marlin guide gun in 45/70 does for sure!... I think my 45/70 has a 32” tube on it and with 450 grain bullets I have shot a few 1/2” groups at 100 yards and around a inch pretty much all the time and it’s not to hard to hit my 18” gong at 600 with it but I don’t know if I could even see a target at 1850 with open sights so that impressed me for sure!
Wayne

 

[Uncle Ed]

The old straight walled "Schutzen Rifles" used a false chamber for bullet seating. And the paper patched bullets were seated into the rifling with a push rod. After the bullet was seated the false chamber was removed and the case was inserted into the chamber. A paper wad was used to hold the powder in the case and the bullet was never seated in the case.

The above gives new meaning on "jam".

 

[bozo699]

E

The old straight walled "Schutzen Rifles" used a false chamber for bullet seating. And the paper patched bullets were seated into the rifling with a push rod. After the bullet was seated the false chamber was removed and the case was inserted into the chamber. A paper wad was used to hold the powder in the case and the bullet was never seated in the case.

The above gives new meaning on "jam".

Ed,
After a 1000 yard br match at Deepcreek a few years ago I stayed over and the next day Monday they had a Schutzen match it was very interesting and those guys get just as involved and anal as us br guys!.... very cool stuff!
Wayne

 

[Uncle Ed]

E

Ed,
After a 1000 yard br match at Deepcreek a few years ago I stayed over and the next day Monday they had a Schutzen match it was very interesting and those guys get just as involved and anal as us br guys!.... very cool stuff!
Wayne

I have some old Lapua cases I will sell you Wayne on the right in the photo below that need fire forming.

Now you know why the old cartridge's had a rim.