OCW vs. QuickLoad.

[seymour fish]

Porter, take a look at "the Purdy Prescription". takes into account the volume of the "echo chamber" of the tuner and how it does affect harmonics. Has been proven up amongst rimfire BR shooters. Seymour

 

[savagedasher]

Ten years I have ben using OL The only changes I do is H2O capacity cartridge length and barrel length. That gives me fill amount ,speed and pressure and amount burned in the barrel. What I look for in a powder is one that the Z1 and Pm the lines are together on the peak of the pressure curve. I never have found a powder that PM and the Z1 were one line on the pressure curve that didn't shoot. I find where the bullet gets it 95% speed in inches. has big effect on how long the chamber last. Barrel time is fun to play with but means nothing on how a gun will shoot.
If you use nothing but the standard 6 MM dasher settings
Enter 105Hybrids Case length set to 2.440 30.0'' barrel Case capacity 41.8 H4350 powder 36.6 gr .
You will see the Z1 and the PM are just one line on the middle of the power curve The bullet gets 95% of speed 17" down the barrel. 108.1 Fill capacity 98.4% burn With 60887 Psi And 3087 FPS
My guns shoot 3070 to 3080 I haven't lost primer pockets so the pressure must be close. My seating depth hasn't change .006 in 1200 rounds. The fire cracking is mild.
When I used Varget and Rl 15 my primers were junk after 5 reloading .015 to.020 Seating depth change the chamber look like a alligator back. OL is just a tool to help to find the powder with different bullets and case capacity Works very well when regulating bullet speed on double guns. Larry

 

[C Valentine]

What does the intelligence level have to be to use QL.? And what's the price ?
It seems to good to be true , ask the machine and it spits out load info.


:

It's really not quite that simple. It's only as good as the data you put in, and you really need to understand that data. If you put garbage in you will get garbage, sometimes dangerous garbage, out. Sometimes a mistake in one data field, shot start pressure for instance (if it is set for a jump when the bullet is actually jammed), can really cause you problems. For anyone new to the program, I would suggest that you take your known loads, record all the measurements plus chrono data, and plug that into QL as learning tool. Don't mess with powder properties, etc. until you completely understand what you are doing. You need to read as much as possible. I found the "manual to relatively useless. Doesn't seem to tell me much more than the bubble help. Be careful about changing defaults unless you understand what you are doing. Having said that, it is the best $150 I ever spent, especially when used along with the OBT tables.

 

[jlow]

Ten years I have ben using OL The only changes I do is H2O capacity cartridge length and barrel length. That gives me fill amount ,speed and pressure and amount burned in the barrel. What I look for in a powder is one that the Z1 and Pm the lines are together on the peak of the pressure curve. I never have found a powder that PM and the Z1 were one line on the pressure curve that didn't shoot. I find where the bullet gets it 95% speed in inches. has big effect on how long the chamber last. Barrel time is fun to play with but means nothing on how a gun will shoot.
If you use nothing but the standard 6 MM dasher settings
Enter 105Hybrids Case length set to 2.440 30.0'' barrel Case capacity 41.8 H4350 powder 36.6 gr .
You will see the Z1 and the PM are just one line on the middle of the power curve The bullet gets 95% of speed 17" down the barrel. 108.1 Fill capacity 98.4% burn With 60887 Psi And 3087 FPS
My guns shoot 3070 to 3080 I haven't lost primer pockets so the pressure must be close. My seating depth hasn't change .006 in 1200 rounds. The fire cracking is mild.
When I used Varget and Rl 15 my primers were junk after 5 reloading .015 to.020 Seating depth change the chamber look like a alligator back. OL is just a tool to help to find the powder with different bullets and case capacity Works very well when regulating bullet speed on double guns. Larry

Good post! I’ve heard of this idea of looking for powder where PM and Z1 line up perfectly before. Care to elaborate a bit more on this in terms of how well it would shoot and “low long the chamber last”?

 

[jlow]

Larry – thanks! What you say in terms of spreading the heat and pressure over a longer distance makes perfect sense to me.

So a few questions. One is how does lining Pmax and Z1 affect this distance? Two is where did you find that distance number? When I look, I see a “Bullet Travel at Pmax” and that number say for a 175 SMK over Varget moving at 2664 fps is a much smaller number – something like 1.46”

 

[savagedasher]

Larry – thanks! What you say in terms of spreading the heat and pressure over a longer distance makes perfect sense to me.

So a few questions. One is how does lining Pmax and Z1 affect this distance? Two is where did you find that distance number? When I look, I see a “Bullet Travel at Pmax” and that number say for a 175 SMK over Varget moving at 2664 fps is a much smaller number – something like 1.46”

I pick my powder using Z1 and PM When I can get Z1 and PM in just one line on the top of the pressure curve that powder shoot best. The 1.46 is barrel time and I found it not to be reliable.
PM works best when it is at the peak of the pressure curve. The Z1 is when the powder burn starts to slow down.
When you find a powder that the Z1 and the PM are one line at the peak of the pressure curve it tunes easy.
The 95% is on the same Diagram and it tells how far down the barrel it takes to get 95% of the bullet speed.
Larry

 

[jlow]

Hi Larry,

I know I am probably just confused ;D, but here is a screen dump of my QL for the 175 SMK. The red arrow points to the Pmax distance (1.46”), and I think my Barrel time is 1.236 ms which sounds right.

With this load which shoots decent in my AT, the Z1 and Pmax is close or on top of each other. The only reason for the question is I am just wondering why my bullet travels so much less than yours, keeping in mind that you are shooting a lighter bullet and you MVs are higher but I am still 1/10 of your distance – thus the question.

 

[Marksman63]

Hi Larry,

I know I am probably just confused ;D, but here is a screen dump of my QL for the 175 SMK. The red arrow points to the Pmax distance (1.46”), and I think my Barrel time is 1.236 ms which sounds right.

With this load which shoots decent in my AT, the Z1 and Pmax is close or on top of each other. The only reason for the question is I am just wondering why my bullet travels so much less than yours, keeping in mind that you are shooting a lighter bullet and you MVs are higher but I am still 1/10 of your distance – thus the question.

I have noticed you input a weighting factor of 0.01. Are you sure?

 

[savagedasher]

Hi Larry,

I know I am probably just confused ;D, but here is a screen dump of my QL for the 175 SMK. The red arrow points to the Pmax distance (1.46”), and I think my Barrel time is 1.236 ms which sounds right.

With this load which shoots decent in my AT, the Z1 and Pmax is close or on top of each other. The only reason for the question is I am just wondering why my bullet travels so much less than yours, keeping in mind that you are shooting a lighter bullet and you MVs are higher but I am still 1/10 of your distance – thus the question.

If you will go to QL v.3.6 Diagram you can see what I work with. I try to find a powder that PM andZ1 is one line on the peak of the power curve. And 95% of the speed is longest down the barrel
Barrel time has never worked for me. Larry

 

[jlow]

Works for me.

 

[savagedasher]

Works for me.

Proof is always on the paper. ;D Larry

 

[jlow]

Hi Larry,

I know I am probably just confused ;D, but here is a screen dump of my QL for the 175 SMK. The red arrow points to the Pmax distance (1.46”), and I think my Barrel time is 1.236 ms which sounds right.

With this load which shoots decent in my AT, the Z1 and Pmax is close or on top of each other. The only reason for the question is I am just wondering why my bullet travels so much less than yours, keeping in mind that you are shooting a lighter bullet and you MVs are higher but I am still 1/10 of your distance – thus the question.

If you will go to QL v.3.6 Diagram you can see what I work with. I try to find a powder that PM andZ1 is one line on the peak of the power curve. And 95% of the speed is longest down the barrel
Barrel time has never worked for me. Larry

I checked and I am using V3.8 so some difference.

Sorry to hear that barrel time has not worked for you. So I imagine that when you find a powder that PM and Z1 co-inside, you just run a regular OCW with that powder?

 

[jlow]

Works for me.

Proof is always on the paper. ;D Larry

+1

 

[savagedasher]

Hi Larry,

I know I am probably just confused ;D, but here is a screen dump of my QL for the 175 SMK. The red arrow points to the Pmax distance (1.46”), and I think my Barrel time is 1.236 ms which sounds right.

With this load which shoots decent in my AT, the Z1 and Pmax is close or on top of each other. The only reason for the question is I am just wondering why my bullet travels so much less than yours, keeping in mind that you are shooting a lighter bullet and you MVs are higher but I am still 1/10 of your distance – thus the question.

If you will go to QL v.3.6 Diagram you can see what I work with. I try to find a powder that PM andZ1 is one line on the peak of the power curve. And 95% of the speed is longest down the barrel
Barrel time has never worked for me. Larry

I checked and I am using V3.8 so some difference.

Sorry to hear that barrel time has not worked for you. So I imagine that when you find a powder that PM and Z1 co-inside, you just run a regular OCW with that powder?

I check all the powder's that give me the fill ratio I want and I look where the Z1 and PM is in relationship to the power curve is. Then where 95 % of the speed is. Powders that the Z1 and PM are one line on top of the power curve give lower ES and SD. Larry

 

[jlow]

Hi Larry,

I know I am probably just confused ;D, but here is a screen dump of my QL for the 175 SMK. The red arrow points to the Pmax distance (1.46”), and I think my Barrel time is 1.236 ms which sounds right.

With this load which shoots decent in my AT, the Z1 and Pmax is close or on top of each other. The only reason for the question is I am just wondering why my bullet travels so much less than yours, keeping in mind that you are shooting a lighter bullet and you MVs are higher but I am still 1/10 of your distance – thus the question.

If you will go to QL v.3.6 Diagram you can see what I work with. I try to find a powder that PM andZ1 is one line on the peak of the power curve. And 95% of the speed is longest down the barrel
Barrel time has never worked for me. Larry

I checked and I am using V3.8 so some difference.

Sorry to hear that barrel time has not worked for you. So I imagine that when you find a powder that PM and Z1 co-inside, you just run a regular OCW with that powder?

I check all the powder's that give me the fill ratio I want and I look where the Z1 and PM is in relationship to the power curve is. Then where 95 % of the speed is. Powders that the Z1 and PM are one line on top of the power curve give lower ES and SD. Larry

Thanks Larry!

 

[savagedasher]

Hi Larry,

I know I am probably just confused ;D, but here is a screen dump of my QL for the 175 SMK. The red arrow points to the Pmax distance (1.46”), and I think my Barrel time is 1.236 ms which sounds right.

With this load which shoots decent in my AT, the Z1 and Pmax is close or on top of each other. The only reason for the question is I am just wondering why my bullet travels so much less than yours, keeping in mind that you are shooting a lighter bullet and you MVs are higher but I am still 1/10 of your distance – thus the question.

If you will go to QL v.3.6 Diagram you can see what I work with. I try to find a powder that PM andZ1 is one line on the peak of the power curve. And 95% of the speed is longest down the barrel
Barrel time has never worked for me. Larry

I checked and I am using V3.8 so some difference.

Sorry to hear that barrel time has not worked for you. So I imagine that when you find a powder that PM and Z1 co-inside, you just run a regular OCW with that powder?

I check all the powder's that give me the fill ratio I want and I look where the Z1 and PM is in relationship to the power curve is. Then where 95 % of the speed is. Powders that the Z1 and PM are one line on top of the power curve give lower ES and SD. Larry

Thanks Larry!

What powder has won more matches and holds more record's then V N133 ? Answer is none.
Take OL and put their load in You will see the Z1 and the PM is one line in the middle of the power curve. ;D
Larry

 

[Mike402]

Ok I was excited because I thought I was learning something new with this whole PM & Z1 line intersection business. I've been using OBT this whole time.

I pulled up my absolute best loads, each of which I painstakingly ran separate OCW tests & seating depth tests for both bullets. At the end of all that exhaustive testing, each one ended up being an almost exact match in the PMAX to muzzle numbers. However, the PM & Z1 lines are not on top of each other, and I couldn't reasonably tweak QL to accomplish that. In the real world, these are single digit ES/SD loads & very accurate. The MV matches my Magnetospeed results, so I'm confident in the burn rates. I tried running it in QL for 4064, and couldn't get the one line either. Anything jump out as to what I'm doing wrong? Here are my QL screenshots:

Hi Larry,

I know I am probably just confused ;D, but here is a screen dump of my QL for the 175 SMK. The red arrow points to the Pmax distance (1.46”), and I think my Barrel time is 1.236 ms which sounds right.

With this load which shoots decent in my AT, the Z1 and Pmax is close or on top of each other. The only reason for the question is I am just wondering why my bullet travels so much less than yours, keeping in mind that you are shooting a lighter bullet and you MVs are higher but I am still 1/10 of your distance – thus the question.

If you will go to QL v.3.6 Diagram you can see what I work with. I try to find a powder that PM andZ1 is one line on the peak of the power curve. And 95% of the speed is longest down the barrel
Barrel time has never worked for me. Larry

I checked and I am using V3.8 so some difference.

Sorry to hear that barrel time has not worked for you. So I imagine that when you find a powder that PM and Z1 co-inside, you just run a regular OCW with that powder?

I check all the powder's that give me the fill ratio I want and I look where the Z1 and PM is in relationship to the power curve is. Then where 95 % of the speed is. Powders that the Z1 and PM are one line on top of the power curve give lower ES and SD. Larry

 

[teele1]

Larry,
Thanks for the instruction yesterday. Its always a pleasure to shoot with you at Manatee. Question on the load you reference, wouldn't this load possibly shoot better since it hits all your criteria plus hits the OBT? 37.0 grains of H4350 And I would like to know what the Z1 reference is also.

 

[savagedasher]

Larry,
Thanks for the instruction yesterday. Its always a pleasure to shoot with you at Manatee. Question on the load you reference, wouldn't this load possibly shoot better since it hits all your criteria plus hits the OBT? 37.0 grains of H4350 And I would like to know what the Z1 reference is also.

It could but with my seating depth I can't seat the bullet. 36.6 Gr and a long drop tube it stills crunches some.
I think dasher .020 long and .150 free bore would be a winner.
Z1 is where the powder stops making more pressure and the burn rate pressure slows. Larry

 

[BoydAllen]

I am always amused by all of this unnecessary complication. I work up loads loading at the range and start by shooting a series (one shot per load) on the same target with a charge interval suitable to the case size. By working carefully from below where I expect to be, to the point where my bolt lift gets a little tighter than I would like, shooting over flags, and a chronograph, I come up with a wealth of information in relatively few shots. It become obvious where shots cluster up, and how ES changes. One thing that can be problematic is that the load that gives the lowest ES may not correspond to an accuracy node. This is where a tuner can help. I know a lot of fellows who will do anything to try to avoid working up loads at the range. It is as if the whole idea of doing something differently than they are used to really bothers them. You should hear the excuses. The same applies to using wind flags.

My other pet peeve is fellows who come looking for reloading info for a rifle that has factory bedding. Give me a break. Do a proper bedding job first, then work on your load.