step by step guide to 6PPC case prep

[michaeljp]

Gday gents,
This is my first and im sure it wont be my last question on this topic or forum.
. In new to the 6PPC scene and im trying to find the correct step by step guide to case prep.The rifle chamber is a .262". The method i'll be using to fire form my new Lapua cases is the 6mm projectile method. Its really just the first few steps that im not 100% sure of, so here is what i know,
step 1, expand the necks.
step 2, this im not sure of, do i turn the neck first, or fire form the case first?
step 3, one of the above
step 4, trim to length,
step 5, deburr and chamfer the case mouth
step 6
etc etc etc
I'm not new to reloading as Ive been reloading for my .223 and 308 for a few years now, its just that the first few steps of the 6PPC are not done with hunting rifles, so i want to get it right the first time and not waste the new brass or jam a case in the chamber
Any info you could help me with would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers Michael

 

[artbosco]

Here's one method, there are many others:

Reloading Steps:

New Lapua 220 Russian brass:
1. Don't touch Flash Hole, leave it at .059".
2. Uniform primer pocket.
3. Deburr inside of primer flash hole.
4. Expand necks.
5. Turn necks.
6. Measure neck OD with a seated bullet at the pressure ring. Re-turn if needed. Goal: .2600"
7. Deburr, Chamfer and 0000 Steel Wool case neck.
8. Remove spring from Bolt and seat case in chamber.
9. Full length size if needed.
10. Prime.
11. Drop powder.
12. Seat bullet.
13. Check dimensions. For a .262" neck chamber, .260" is the goal with seated bullet.
14. Light oil outside of cases prior to fire forming the first time.
15. Fire Form.
16. Trim to length [1.490"].

 

[michaeljp]

Thanks Outdoorsman,
Thats great info there, a few things that i forgot. The bloke i bought the gun from sent me some info on OAL with the projectiles he sent me with seating measurements from base to ogive with his projectiles and powder recommendation and trim lengths, and also 2 dummy rounds so i could get measurements off. I just wasn't sure what had to be done prior to fire forming.
Ive never pulled apart a bolt before, this 6PPC is on a Remington 700 action. At the moment i dont think i need to use that step you mentioned as i already have the bullet seating depths for these projectiles etc, but if in the future i change projectiles how hard is it to pull the bolt apart and what tools do i need?
Cheers Mick

 

[BoydAllen]

If you want to be slick, get a Kleinendorst tool.
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/492351/kleinendorst-bolt-disassembly-tool-remington-700
Or you can use one of these methods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK89W2jJ838&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDy2GrIx6p8
The first video does a better job of showing the detail of what has to take place.

 

[artbosco]

If you want to be slick, get a Kleinendorst tool.
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/492351/kleinendorst-bolt-disassembly-tool-remington-700

Mic,

The Kleinendorst tool is similar to the BAT Machine tool that I use to disassemble my BAT action bolts. VERY EASY to use.

By removing the spring you get a true feel of how much pressure is being applied to seat the case in the chamber and whether or not you need to push the shoulder back.

The bolt should drop about half way down with out you doing no more than pushing it straight in. After that you'll need to help it down the final half until fully closed or seated in the stock's cut out. If the shoulder has been pushed back no more than .002" [some like .0005" to .0015"] the bolt should close with little effort.

P.S. This is not a test for bullet seating depth, but rather for case shoulder/chamber seating dimension.

 

[SS427]

Couple questions for Outdoorsman.

You left out steps 1 and 2 of the article you often quote, those being "Step 1 - Make the neck-shoulder junction to head length and outside case dimensions identical for all cases" and "Step 2 - Trim the cases to the same overall length." Step one is included in Tony Boyers directions in his book. And he suggests you do step 2 if lengths vary more than .003. Any comment on this? Seems important to me if you want 100% uniform cases. (Not being smart, as I'm just learning myself.)

Also, you say after fireforming to trim to 1.490. This seems a standard length. However, what if your reamer is cut at 1.510 or even 1.525, which seems to be a new standard? Jack Neary is using the 1.525 reamer length and it appears from a PTG reamer print I got for Lester Bruno he is too. If you have a reamer that cuts at 1.525, should you still go with a 1.490 trim lengh? Or would a trim length of 1.510 make more sense? According to Jack, you just don't want to get any closer than .010, assuming I understood his videos right. Is there a draw back to cutting them shorter than needed?

Any help is appreciated. This stuff is driving me crazy cause I want to do it 100% right the first time.

Another thought....it is suggested you size the neck to whatever tension you plan to use, and use that size to find the "jam" prior to fire forming. Well, it appears my expander die expands for the mandral in such a way that I can't neck it down any more. Should I just use this neck tension to find my "jam"?

Or am I over thinking this???

 

[fdshuster]

I try to keep it simple, the way I've been doing it since 1998. (1) Expand the neck to 6mm. (2) Outside neck turn to .0085" for the .262" chambers. (3) Push the 220 Russian shoulders back just enough to close the bolt. This puts a very slight double angle on the shoulder that will blow out to 30 degrees with the first firing. (4) Inside taper ream the mouth of the case using the K&M tool. (5) Load with 26 grs. of H322 & the 68 gr. Berger touching. Done.

 

[michaeljp]

Thanks for the comments fellas.
I knew starting from scratch on a new (to me) caliber wouldn't be easy. But we have already a differing opinion on the first few steps of case prep.
Now i only ever neck turned to get rid of the high spots on my hunting rifles,223 and 308, but when i started turning i could see that the case mouth was not flush against the mandrel wall/stopper and as i went down further i could see a wave pattern forming on the case shoulder. These 2 things showed me that they had to be trimmed before neck turning.
From a couple of comments here trimming the case length is way down the list. After thinking what ive done in the past i would have thought that
step 1 would be to expand the neck, and maybe step 2 trim to length, so that when i neck turn, the case shoulder on each case would be turned equally, and step 3 would be to turn the necks. Am i right in saying this?
Also i have a K&M professional Flash Hole Uniformer K&M #UPPPC062 PPC 0.062" should i use this tool or not?
Cheers Mick

 

[SS427]

Someone needs to confirm this. It is my understanding you would only trim them to make sure they are all the same length prior to turning. Don't trim them to 1.490 because the case actually gets shorter during the fire forming process.

On the other hand I would think you would need to trim to less than the length of the reamer prior to fire forming. For instance if the reamer used is 1.500, wouldn't you need to trim the cases to slightly shorter than that prior to shooting the first time otherwise you would jam the brass?

 

[BoydAllen]

If you use the shoulder at the inner end of the turning mandrel as a stop, (I don't) then you should trim your brass to the longest length that will clean them all up on the end, prior to turning. After they are fire formed is when the 1.490 trim length comes into play. Jack Neary said that he uses this with a 1.525 reamer, with no accuracy problem, and I will tell you that it has the advantage of keeping the ends of your necks back from the corner at the end of the neck portion of the chamber where powder fouling can hide, beyond the reach of normal brushing, because the bristles are bent by the beginning of the throat.

Just to complicate your life....I have a old worn out barrel that I use for fireforming, which I do one of two ways....Bullseye NO BULLET [size=8pt][size=12pt]or by shooting a 55 gr. BT .22 bullet down the 6mm bore, using what ever PPC burning rate powder is cheap and available. When I do this for my .262 neck chamber, I find it an advantage to expand and turn at .22 cal. (.010 neck thickness) This leaves the neck just enough smaller than my 6mm expander so that they are all uniformed by its use, but not so much that cases are made crooked in the process. This method produces very straight brass. [/size]

 

[michaeljp]

My intention was as you said Otter and Boyd, just to make sure they are the same length and the case mouth is square. The bloke i bought the gun from said to trim them to 1.495" after fire forming.
And as you said Boyd, just to "complicate my life" i only have the one barrel. The bloke whom i bought it from gave me about 20 used case for this barrel but id like to start of with 50 brand new cases. He also loaded up 2 dummy rounds for me to compare me reloads to. He makes his own projectiles, so i bought 1000 from him to start of with. He was getting in the low 0.2's and high 0.1's with these rounds. I'm going to use the 6mm projectile forming technique as he explained to me.
I still have to buy a scope for it and although the fire forming rounds aren't or wouldn't be very accurate i could use them for the initial sighting in rounds. At least they will get me on the paper and it can get me into a reloading routine.

 

[BoydAllen]

You seem to be a fellow who has good sense, and should be just fine with all of this. Let us know how it goes. Do you have any wind flags?

 

[artbosco]

Couple questions for Outdoorsman.
You left out steps 1 and 2 of the article you often quote, those being "Step 1 - Make the neck-shoulder junction to head length and outside case dimensions identical for all cases" and "Step 2 - Trim the cases to the same overall length." Step one is included in Tony Boyers directions in his book. And he suggests you do step 2 if lengths vary more than .003. Any comment on this? Seems important to me if you want 100% uniform cases. (Not being smart, as I'm just learning myself.)

As I recall Mic is fireforming new brass. I wait until I fireform them at least 2 times before I trim to the 1.490" as Neary recommends. I also follow Boyers .003" variance once beyond the fireforming process.

Also, you say after fireforming to trim to 1.490. This seems a standard length. However, what if your reamer is cut at 1.510 or even 1.525, which seems to be a new standard? Jack Neary is using the 1.525 reamer length and it appears from a PTG reamer print I got for Lester Bruno he is too. If you have a reamer that cuts at 1.525, should you still go with a 1.490 trim length? Or would a trim length of 1.510 make more sense? According to Jack, you just don't want to get any closer than .010, assuming I understood his videos right. Is there a draw back to cutting them shorter than needed?

I you replay Jack's videos, he mentions, as I recall, that he went to a longer reamer so he wouldn't have to worry about trimming, then after his research, he found that trimming to 1.490" seem to produce the optimum results. He goes on to say, if I recall correctly, that the longer neck chamber didn't seem to affect the improved results achieved with the shorten case length. It's a brief statement, but I believe you can hear it, in spite of the background noise.

Any help is appreciated. This stuff is driving me crazy cause I want to do it 100% right the first time.

Another thought....it is suggested you size the neck to whatever tension you plan to use, and use that size to find the "jam" prior to fire forming.

Personally, I don't worry about tuning/finding the jam until I'm finished fireforming. Others may do it differently. I view case prep and fireforming as a separate operation from tuning.

Well, it appears my expander die expands for the mandrel in such a way that I can't neck it down any more. Should I just use this neck tension to find my "jam"?

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I use Harrell's and Billy Stevens custom full length dies with bushing capability and can adjust tension, [regardless of what the mandrel has applied while expanding or turning], by inserting the bushing that I feel is necessary for tuning the barrel with N133 Powder.

Or am I over thinking this???

Being conscientious and wanting to do things right is not over thinking, in my book.

 

[SS427]

Outdoorsman - my understanding is you want a jammed bullet during the fireforming process. That way you create the uniform pressured needed to expand the case while it is held steady. At least that is what I got out of Tony Boyers book. I double checked the brass I'm about to fireform and it seems to have the neck tension that would be applied from a .268 bushing. I think I'm in the ball park. I will seat a bullet slightly longer than I think it needs to be and then "jam" it into the case a couple times and get an average measurement, then seat all my fireforming bullets at that depth into the case.

 

[artbosco]

Outdoorsman - my understanding is you want a jammed bullet during the fireforming process. That way you create the uniform pressured needed to expand the case while it is held steady. At least that is what I got out of Tony Boyer's book. I double checked the brass I'm about to fireform and it seems to have the neck tension that would be applied from a .268 bushing. I think I'm in the ball park. I will seat a bullet slightly longer than I think it needs to be and then "jam" it into the case a couple times and get an average measurement, then seat all my fireforming bullets at that depth into the case.

I have a 6PPC with the more common .262" neck chamber. My loaded round measured at the pressure ring is .2599"/.2600"/.2601". I use either a .257" or a .256" bushing because N133 likes a lot of neck tension. The Bart's Ultra flat base, when seated for all firings, is jammed so that I get a "square mark" on the bullet just in front of the case.

Just out of curiosity, if you're using a .268" bushing, what is your neck chambered for? What's the OD of the loaded round? What powder?

 

[SS427]

I also have a .262 neck. Just seated my first bullet tonight and found the jam. I'm using Sierra Matchkings for firing forming and OD of a loaded round measures .2602 using some pre-turned brass I bought. When I turn more myself I will probably turn them down slightly more.

N133 is the powder I will be using.

For clarification, the size of the bushing has nothing to do with OD of the loader round....just determines the neck tension. Correct? I have bushings in .257, .258 and .259 to work with.

 

[BoydAllen]

You are correct. I would go with the .267 and go smaller for thinner necks (for later). What bullet will you be using after fire forming? I would try 28.5 +-.3 (133) with conventional (single radius)ogive bullet 65 - 68gr. about .006-.008 into the lands....205 or 205M primers. Let us know.

 

[SS427]

After I get some brass formed I have 500 Barts 68 grain BT bullets to try. I also have less than 100 68 grain Berger flat base but will focus on the Barts and cross my fingers they are accurate.

 

[bozo699]

Boyd,
I am new to 6ppc, just bought one today off here, could I p.m you or even call you sometime and pick your brain ?
Wayne.

 

[fdshuster]

Otter: Your bushing dimensions caught my eye. With a .262" chamber neck ( I have 2 ) you must have meant bushing sizes of .257", .258" & .259"? I mostly use .259", but depending on the number of reloads on the brass, may also use .258". And, yes, you are correct. Bushing diameter only effects the amount of tension on the bullet. Just as an example of how consistant everything is: I also have 2 chamberings with .272" chambers & use the .269" & .268" bushings for those, exactly .010" larger. Another yes to your choice of powder, easily my favorite for the 6 ppc's.