6PPC case prep ?

[timeout]

I neck turned and fire formed two Lapua 220 Russian cases in preparation to have a Harrell's die made for same. I received the die and shoulder bump gauge tool and purchased neck bushings. I proceeded to size using the Harrell's die, bumped the shoulder back .001", have the desired neck tension and all seems well. My next step was to expand and neck turn the remaining 98 new Lapua cases. I am satisfied with the results. What has me stumped is that when checking the cartridge case overall length I am at 1.490" and 1.491" on the two fireformed cases. When I take a random sampling of the unfired cases the overall length is varying from 1.509" to 1.517". My info instructs me to trim for overall length after I fireform. Is it OK to force these cartridges into the chamber for the fireforming procedure? I just do not want to ruin the rifle, or brass for that matter. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Eddie Harren]

They will shorten up somewhat when they are fireformed.

 

[BoydAllen]

You need to find out how long your chamber is from the front of the neck to the bolt face. Common dimensions are 1.515 and 1.525. Chambering is typically not done to absoluete minimum headspace, which would yield a couple more thousandths of room. Bottom line, you may not have a problem, but it is a good thing that you are so detail oriented.

 

[timeout]

Thanks so much for the input gentlemen. I am kind of up against it insofar as knowing the max chamber length because I purchased the rifle used (a mistake I won't soon make again). It has been quite the learning experience to jump into 6PPC for my first ever competition rifle. I am learning though and with some expense, gathering a boat load of equipment! I understand that these cases did shorten in overall length when I fireformed them. What is causing my concern is that I believe that closing the bolt on an unfired case is taking too much pressure. Yes, it closes, but what am I damageing? Would it be a good thing to apply some blueing paste to the case and see where it is rubbing? I am concerned if I trim the overall length before fireforming, then the cases will be too short. I just hate to full speed ahead and Damn the torpedoes. That is usually not a good thing when reloading is the project.

 

[bozo699]

Thanks so much for the input gentlemen. I am kind of up against it insofar as knowing the max chamber length because I purchased the rifle used (a mistake I won't soon make again). It has been quite the learning experience to jump into 6PPC for my first ever competition rifle. I am learning though and with some expense, gathering a boat load of equipment! I understand that these cases did shorten in overall length when I fireformed them. What is causing my concern is that I believe that closing the bolt on an unfired case is taking too much pressure. Yes, it closes, but what am I damageing? Would it be a good thing to apply some blueing paste to the case and see where it is rubbing? I am concerned if I trim the overall length before fireforming, then the cases will be too short. I just hate to full speed ahead and Damn the torpedoes. That is usually not a good thing when reloading is the project.

Timeout,
Follow Boyds instruction on the 6ppc and you won't go wrong, he doesn't know everything and is open to new things and will be the first to tell you that but he is very experienced with the 6ppc and as far as I am concerned is unsurpassed in explaining things so that simple people like myself can understand and apply what has been explained. So many times people talk in big words and we simple people have a tough time with it, boyd doesn't talk over your head and if by chance he does just say so and he will explain it so you do understand, he had me shooting in the ones and two's with just two or three short verbal lessons via P.M's and a phone call or two best of luck my friend and I enjoyed our p.m's this morning.
Wayne.

 

[bozo699]

P.S to last post,...take notes, from p.m's, post's and phone calls, articles or whatever that make sense to you, you can always go back to them, also keep a detailed journal on your ppc itself, you will thank yourself later.
Wayne.

 

[timeout]

I have printed out several pages from this forum and site. In fact I printed out a topic this morning where Boyd had provided some info on bullet choice for the PPC. I have them in a folder and have referred back to them several times during this process. I will need to take notes when this progresses to the shooting bench though. Thanks for the sage advice! PS - I sort of jumped into this thing without anywhere near the knowledge I needed. I am hoping to make this rifle shoot out to 300 yards. It has a 1 in 14.5 twist according to my calculations. I may well be beating my head against the wall. I guess the good thing is that I am learning a bunch with this project. If it doesn't work as well as I expect for the 300 yard use, I will just have to buy a different barrel (and perhaps caliber).

 

[BoydAllen]

In order for my un fire formed cases to not require excessive force to close the bolt, I have to make sure that the leading bevel on the turning tool cutter cuts on the shoulder. At first I was concerned that I might be excessively weakening the case at this point by doing so, so I used my Dremel tool and a reinforced abrasive cutoff wheel to cut a section out of the neck and shoulder. (If you do this, be sure to wear eye protection and at least a paper mask, because the direction of rotation threw fine brass dust right in my face, not something that I recommend for eyes or breathing.) Anyway, after doing that I could see that there was no problem. The cut on the shoulder is shallow enough that it is hard to catch a finger nail where it ends. I think that this is probably the source of your problem. Another thing, make sure that your lugs have a light film of GREASE on their locking surfaces to prevent galling. Let me know if this solves your problem. I make the cut by eye, but some trim just enough before turning to at least make some cut on the end of the case, so that they will all stop at the same place when they come to the shoulder at the inside of the turning mandrel, and then set the position of that shoulder to act as a uniform length of cut stop, to limit how far they cut into the shoulder. I should also mention that one friend has a tool that does not have much of a chamfer on the cutter, if I had that problem, and the cutter was not carbide, I would modify it so that it did. Also, I want a slightly larger shoulder angle than the case that I am working on, so that the leading edge of the cut will be thinner on the shoulder.

 

[timeout]

Thanks Boyd. I have a gymanastics meet to go to for my granddaughter tonite. I will look into it closer tomorrow. I did try to cut just to the shoulder or lightly into. I have a K&M turner. I adjusted the carbide mandrel so that it is used for a stop. The end of the case neck bottoms against the mandrel. That worked well enough. I am fairly confident now that as you say, if I keep the bolt greased I should be fine. I am probably over cautious. On something like this I tend to be a tad "fussy". I probably won't be as good a shooter as I need to be, so I am attempting do a perfect job in the loading prep and then the tuning. Time will tell.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you trim all your cases so that the shortest one is just touched, then you can reposition the mandrel in the turner body so that you do not advance the cut into the shoulder but are as close as you can get to where you stopped the first time (when you turned them) Next move the mandrel .002 and recut the neck going as far toward the shoulder as you can. Test in the rifle, but do not force. Keep repeating the repositioning of the mandrel till the bolt close has feel but does not require force. Record the trim length and the position of the mandrel in the trimmer body. You should be good to go. Forcing the bolt, even if it is greased is just quitting before you are done, and will of course immediately create a doughnut in every case that is forced. Do the setting drill on one case, in case you make a mistake. Record mandrel positions as you go.

 

[timeout]

Ok, I finally got back to my project. I did as you said and trimmed all cases to the length of the shortest case. I should have thought of that myself but sure didn't. The next new batch of brass I prepare, I plan to trim all cases to the shortest length after expanding and before turning the necks. I think my biggest problem turned out to be that I did not run the cases through my Harrell FL die. My instruction list said to FL resize if needed. I was thinking that would not be necessary until they had been fire formed. Between trimming and FL sizing, the bolt now closes smooth as glass. No excessive force and no drag, just smooth and easy. I loaded 3 different bullets to "jam" and recorded the length to ogive. I am now ready to fire form and then start the tuning process. Thanks for everyone's help during this learning process. I have been a bit of a PITA! I am confident that the brass is well prepared.