Starline 556 case head separation

[DShortt]

Just checked the Starline website. They show .223 Basic brass and .223 Remington brass under 2 different part numbers. The Basic brass is listed as the same as the Remington brass but it has no neck or shoulder formed.

No 5.56 brass listed.

Edit to add - I missed it. They list 5.56x45 brass also.

Apologies for any confusion.

 

[LVLAaron]

Just checked the Starline website. They show .223 Basic brass and .223 Remington brass under 2 different part numbers. The Basic brass is listed as the same as the Remington brass but it has no neck or shoulder formed.

No 5.56 brass listed.

5.56x45mm Brass - Small Rifle - Brass Cases

 

[DShortt]

5.56x45mm Brass - Small Rifle - Brass Cases

You are correct. I missed it.

I wonder what the difference is between it and 223 Remington since the part #s are different.

I think I'll send them an email and ask. This thread has me curious.

Might be as simple as the headstamp, but maybe not.

 

[Highpower-FClass]

You are correct. I missed it.

I wonder what the difference is between it and 223 Remington since the part #s are different.

I think I'll send them an email and ask. This thread has me curious.

Might be as simple as the headstamp, but maybe not.

From their website:

"Starline’s 5.56x45mm brass is identical to Starline’s .223 Remington brass except for a slight change in the metallurgy making it harder at the base of the case"

 

[DShortt]

From their website:

"Starline’s 5.56x45mm brass is identical to Starline’s .223 Remington brass except for a slight change in the metallurgy making it harder at the base of the case"


View attachment 1650310

'Slight change in metallurgy making it harder at the base of the case'.

That sounds peculiar.

I'll be interested to see if I get a specific response from Starline or just a 'copy and paste' of this.

 

[RegionRat]

That sounds peculiar.

Just chewing fat...
Sometimes the specifics of the hardness in the case head is because the brass is oriented toward the 556 and AR use, where the rim gets more abuse than in a bolt gun on extraction.

It might also be interesting to see if the failed wildcat cases were harder or softer than the usual up in the body, or if the thickness mentioned was an issue.

The problem with adding body thickness outside of the normal, would be that folks get the internal case volume and load tuned up expecting it to stay the same, and a change might mean needing to segregate brass that doesn't have an identification on the head. Time will tell.

This is why I buy and batch their brass in 1- or 2-thousand-piece batches and keep them segregated.

I have had variations in LC, Starline, Winchester, Lapua, pretty much all of them at one time or another. YMMV

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Just chewing fat...
Sometimes the specifics of the hardness in the case head is because the brass is oriented toward the 556 and AR use, where the rim gets more abuse than in a bolt gun on extraction.

It might also be interesting to see if the failed wildcat cases were harder or softer than the usual up in the body, or if the thickness mentioned was an issue.

The problem with adding body thickness outside of the normal, would be that folks get the internal case volume and load tuned up expecting it to stay the same, and a change might mean needing to segregate brass that doesn't have an identification on the head. Time will tell.

This is why I buy and batch their brass in 1- or 2-thousand-piece batches and keep them segregated.

I have had variations in LC, Starline, Winchester, Lapua, pretty much all of them at one time or another. YMMV

I keep the brass separated by lot. I asked if the old brass is still safe in normal 223 chambers they said yes. Good cuz I have a bunch loaded. Ill toss em after I shoot em.

They also confirmed my newer lot is same as current production. Having used both lots now in several guns, the volume must be close enough, because I can't tell a difference in velocity.

Just to confirm, I got the gun back together. I am not even close to lowering the bolt on the no go. This is as far as it can close.

Going forward I will do load development with like 25 pieces for the AI. This way I can make sure the brass holds up before I fireform hundreds and have to toss them again.

 

[Old Navy]

FWIW I had pretty much the same problem with 1x Lake City brass. Fireformed a huge batch and gradually lost about half of them to CHS by the 7th firing. The rest lasted almost forever. I fireformed with a light jam and a medium-light load. Next time I will try a lot of neck tension and a heavy jam.

And a regular load.

 

[DLT]

It’s best if we just steer clear of it. Way to common in every thread that fires up about starlines 223 brass

 

[DShortt]

I'm curious about several things. Brass metallurgy, sizing die/chamber dimensions and sizing die settings/headspace.

I suspect there's a combination of reasons why the brass is failing, not 1 specific cause.
LC brass is generally pretty durable, so there's a reason why it's reported to have problems in .223 applications also.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

I'm curious about several things. Brass metallurgy, sizing die/chamber dimensions and sizing die settings/headspace.

I suspect there's a combination of reasons why the brass is failing, not 1 specific cause.
LC brass is generally pretty durable, so there's a reason why it's reported to have problems in .223 applications also.

Most all LC is 1x fired. You have no idea what sort of mall ninja built AR it was fired in the first time.

 

[DShortt]

Most all LC is 1x fired. You have no idea what sort of mall ninja built AR it was fired in the first time.

True.
That's why thorough brass inspection is necessary when dealing with used brass from unverified sources.

If it's blown way out of spec, it's scrap.

I am wondering if the metallurgy criteria applied to the 5.56x45 brass *might* be detrimental to repeated sizing/firing cycles.

If so, one would think it would crop up in 7.62x51 brass also.

So there's that.

Maybe it's as simple as 'Mall Ninjas' don't build AR-10s?

Doubt that.

As an aside, I dislike LC military brass simply because I don't like dealing with the primer crimps.

 

[DShortt]

Here's a can o' worms to open.

Suppose we all started verifying all our brass purchases for the specified dimensions and all our bullet purchases for the correct diameter and weight?

Kinda like a bore scope applied to a barrel, eh?

 

[243winxb]

Friend gave me is LC brass fired in different AR 15 rifles . Brass was different years/lots. All factory ammo.
It did ok in a low cost rife, after full Bench Rest prep. (My method).

The other target is BHM brass neck turned vs not turned. Turning removes the donut that comes with the brass. New or* used brass.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

True.
That's why thorough brass inspection is necessary when dealing with used brass from unverified sources.

If it's blown way out of spec, it's scrap.

I am wondering if the metallurgy criteria applied to the 5.56x45 brass *might* be detrimental to repeated sizing/firing cycles.

If so, one would think it would crop up in 7.62x51 brass also.

So there's that.

Maybe it's as simple as 'Mall Ninjas' don't build AR-10s?

Doubt that.

As an aside, I dislike LC military brass simply because I don't like dealing with the primer crimps.

I have no use for once fired brass or anything like that with all the time and effort, a few bucks ain't worth it. If you are worried a lot about money, you have the wrong hobby, im sure you know. I have months and months of brass prep, testing, and so on. Has to be way over 100 hours. I make about 50 bucks an hour. So easily 5k of my time and I have to start all over. I only have so much free time.

Plus the components, which again is less about money, more about im gonna have to buy a new lot of powder and bullets etc and have to test again. This gun is now out of service till next year cuz it's going to be too hot soon. I had my gun goals lined up for next year, test primers and seating depth in 3 guns and start new 7 saum loading. Well, now I may not have enough time for it all.

I bought starline, cuz there was no Lapua. It seemed to have the best reviews and following other than LC. If alpha or peterson made 223 brass, i would have got that if there was no lapua.

 

[Old Navy]

When I bought my first AR around twenty years I bought a 1000 rounds of LC 67 pulled down brass. The crimp had been removed and polished. It was excellent brass. I have picked up a lot of once fired over the years and every batch was different. I tried to neck up one batch to make 6.5 TCU. I split the neck on 7 or 8 out of ten cases. I had to anneal it to get what I wanted. I suspected it was never annealed when new.

 

[tommeboy]

Pretty sure the reason this happened was you fired itin a 223 chamber then fired it in a 223ai chamber. And not jamming the bullet. So the brass grew in the body instead of getting shorter from the neck and shoulder like it is supposed to form from. Or do a false shoulder by running a 6mm expander into the neck then partial size it back to 223. This will leave a sort of donut to headspace the case hard back against the bolt face. Starline is just being nice and getting you more brass to replace it.

I always follow this rule. New barrel? New brass.

 

[DShortt]

I have no use for once fired brass or anything like that with all the time and effort, a few bucks ain't worth it. If you are worried a lot about money, you have the wrong hobby, im sure you know. I have months and months of brass prep, testing, and so on. Has to be way over 100 hours. I make about 50 bucks an hour. So easily 5k of my time and I have to start all over. I only have so much free time.

Plus the components, which again is less about money, more about im gonna have to buy a new lot of powder and bullets etc and have to test again. This gun is now out of service till next year cuz it's going to be too hot soon. I had my gun goals lined up for next year, test primers and seating depth in 3 guns and start new 7 saum loading. Well, now I may not have enough time for it all.

I bought starline, cuz there was no Lapua. It seemed to have the best reviews and following other than LC. If alpha or peterson made 223 brass, i would have got that if there was no lapua.

And as I stated earlier the thread, unless you eliminate the possible failure causes it might occur again.
Not trying to give you grief, but if you've already determined this particular rifle is out of service until next year anyway, I'd want to know just exactly what happened.
I highly value my time also. I understand.

 

[243winxb]

Going forward I will do load development with like 25 pieces for the AI. This way I can make sure the brass holds up before I fireform hundreds and have to toss them again.

Great idea, starting with 25 brass. See how many loading you get.

I dont stockpile anymore. 100 rounds maximum at a time.

 

[jelenko]

dont stockpile anymore

Yeah. I've been bit several times - got to pull down hundreds of rounds.