Spotting scopes / power ?
- Thread starter Hans
- Start date
Hans,
On my Pentax PF-100ED the zoom runs from 26-78 with the 100MM objective. For viewing bullet holes at 500 meters I usually find myself setting it at about 60X which seems to give me a little better definition under most environmental conditions. When its clear without mirage cranking it all the way up to 78 can be nice. I feel you get better definition with a fixed power eyepiece, but at the shorter yardages,100-300) the zoom sure makes it nice getting on target and gives you a bit better control of the sight picture when the mirage is running.
Danny Reever
On my Pentax PF-100ED the zoom runs from 26-78 with the 100MM objective. For viewing bullet holes at 500 meters I usually find myself setting it at about 60X which seems to give me a little better definition under most environmental conditions. When its clear without mirage cranking it all the way up to 78 can be nice. I feel you get better definition with a fixed power eyepiece, but at the shorter yardages,100-300) the zoom sure makes it nice getting on target and gives you a bit better control of the sight picture when the mirage is running.
Danny Reever
Danny
You are right about the zoom,one of my motorized mead scopes has a great Swarovski zoom eye piece. Its bright and clear,just a bit less crisp in focus than a fixed eye piece.
How is that Pentax 100 mm in weight and length, to handle ?
I was looking at the short fat mirror scopes Celestron makes a 130. I just need to compare some at the optics store in Oceanside.
Hans
You are right about the zoom,one of my motorized mead scopes has a great Swarovski zoom eye piece. Its bright and clear,just a bit less crisp in focus than a fixed eye piece.
How is that Pentax 100 mm in weight and length, to handle ?
I was looking at the short fat mirror scopes Celestron makes a 130. I just need to compare some at the optics store in Oceanside.
Hans
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Hans,
I don't know what your budget permits. I like the big Pentax eyepieces, I like the focus on the Leica, but the Zeiss is the sharpest scope I've ever looked through.
If you shop around you can find very good deals on the Pentax 100.
As for Kowa being the gold standard--that's just not the case IMHO. The ED Kowa is a fine spotting scope, but do an A/B test with the Zeiss 85 and you'll notice a difference--just like looking through a Leupold 8-25 then trying a Schmidt & Bender 5-25. The difference is quite noticeable.
I haven't had a chance to try the big Swaro extensively in the field. Reports are good. But if some-one gave me a choice of any scope, I'd take the Zeiss 85. The Pentax 100 is really huge--and to me that's a disadvantage.
I agree with Danny, if you're trying to see 6mm bullet holes at 500 yards and beyond, 60+ power is great to have. The Highpower guys feel a little different--they have someone mark their shots so less power, a brighter image, and wider field of view works better for them.
I don't know what your budget permits. I like the big Pentax eyepieces, I like the focus on the Leica, but the Zeiss is the sharpest scope I've ever looked through.
If you shop around you can find very good deals on the Pentax 100.
As for Kowa being the gold standard--that's just not the case IMHO. The ED Kowa is a fine spotting scope, but do an A/B test with the Zeiss 85 and you'll notice a difference--just like looking through a Leupold 8-25 then trying a Schmidt & Bender 5-25. The difference is quite noticeable.
I haven't had a chance to try the big Swaro extensively in the field. Reports are good. But if some-one gave me a choice of any scope, I'd take the Zeiss 85. The Pentax 100 is really huge--and to me that's a disadvantage.
I agree with Danny, if you're trying to see 6mm bullet holes at 500 yards and beyond, 60+ power is great to have. The Highpower guys feel a little different--they have someone mark their shots so less power, a brighter image, and wider field of view works better for them.
I agree with the sharpness on better scopes . I have fujinon binoculars that have better resolution at a LOWER power than a High powered cheap pair.
Now we come to the bottom line "bang for the buck " which would be the best scope, without the impress your buddy "big Brand name price " .
Price is not a problem, Having bought film cameras that are almost worthless now with the advent of digital photography . My Hasselblad CM 500 / 6X7 Pentax are wonderful paper weights.
Hans
Retro edit,PS I did a quick search /review of the spotting scopes listed a few posts below this one.
The bird watchers scope reviews are the same, they left out some larger scopes.
Now we come to the bottom line "bang for the buck " which would be the best scope, without the impress your buddy "big Brand name price " .
Price is not a problem, Having bought film cameras that are almost worthless now with the advent of digital photography . My Hasselblad CM 500 / 6X7 Pentax are wonderful paper weights.
Hans
Retro edit,PS I did a quick search /review of the spotting scopes listed a few posts below this one.
The bird watchers scope reviews are the same, they left out some larger scopes.
Forum Boss
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Hans,
The Pentax 100 is big, REALLY big. You need a serious tripod and it might be a little tough to rig on the ground like the F-Class and Highpower guys do. Here's me looking through one.
Here are my comments from San Gabriel using the Pentax 100 and a Zeiss 85 side by side:
"By contrast, the Zeiss 85mm,fitted with 20-60 zoom eyepiece) offered more eye-relief, making the Zeiss more user-friendly than the Pentax. The Zeiss' image was a little more blue,less yellow) in tone than that of the Pentax. In my opinion, color fidelity was slightly better with the Zeiss. Contrast was good, but I'd give the edge to the Pentax as it was so bright. But when it came to pure sharpness, or resolution, in my opinion, the Zeiss 85mm out-performed the big Pentax. The resolution on the Zeiss is really just incredible--the best I've ever encountered, and I've also sampled the top of the line Leicas and Swaros. I also preferred the focusing system on the Zeiss. The course-focus wheel is fast and smooth and the fine-focus knob is just about perfect. Lastly, the Zeiss weighs less than the Pentax and is much more compact. Bottom line: If I was shelling out the cash, I'd buy the Zeiss, unless I wanted superior low-light capability. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that there ARE differences between individual scope units. Conceivably, if you pulled a different Pentax 100ED out of the box and compared it with a different Zeiss unit, the Zeiss' resolution edge might not be so apparent."
I would be interested in your experience using one of the big astronomical scopes. The Casegrain mirror type are fairly compact and you can use an astronomy grade eyepiece.
Re the units holding their value--I couldn't speculate. But I think we have to figure that, pretty soon, all the mfgs will offer something with digital output as an option. But I think, to be truly user-friendly, the LCD screen should be demountable, so you can position it in for easy viewing while shooting.
The Pentax 100 is big, REALLY big. You need a serious tripod and it might be a little tough to rig on the ground like the F-Class and Highpower guys do. Here's me looking through one.
Here are my comments from San Gabriel using the Pentax 100 and a Zeiss 85 side by side:
"By contrast, the Zeiss 85mm,fitted with 20-60 zoom eyepiece) offered more eye-relief, making the Zeiss more user-friendly than the Pentax. The Zeiss' image was a little more blue,less yellow) in tone than that of the Pentax. In my opinion, color fidelity was slightly better with the Zeiss. Contrast was good, but I'd give the edge to the Pentax as it was so bright. But when it came to pure sharpness, or resolution, in my opinion, the Zeiss 85mm out-performed the big Pentax. The resolution on the Zeiss is really just incredible--the best I've ever encountered, and I've also sampled the top of the line Leicas and Swaros. I also preferred the focusing system on the Zeiss. The course-focus wheel is fast and smooth and the fine-focus knob is just about perfect. Lastly, the Zeiss weighs less than the Pentax and is much more compact. Bottom line: If I was shelling out the cash, I'd buy the Zeiss, unless I wanted superior low-light capability. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that there ARE differences between individual scope units. Conceivably, if you pulled a different Pentax 100ED out of the box and compared it with a different Zeiss unit, the Zeiss' resolution edge might not be so apparent."
I would be interested in your experience using one of the big astronomical scopes. The Casegrain mirror type are fairly compact and you can use an astronomy grade eyepiece.
Re the units holding their value--I couldn't speculate. But I think we have to figure that, pretty soon, all the mfgs will offer something with digital output as an option. But I think, to be truly user-friendly, the LCD screen should be demountable, so you can position it in for easy viewing while shooting.
When I tested the Zeiss and the Pentax "Heads up" it was declared a draw among the half dozen guys,my test panel) present.
If you want compact and easily mountable on most tripods definately go with the Zeiss. Also if you need an angled eypiece pick the Zeiss as Pentax only offers this option in the PF-80ED, which can be had for half the cost of the Zeiss or big Pentax, definately a best buy in spotting scopes!!!!).
Myself, if Zeiss made a 100MM I might be selling my Pentax PF-100ED and jumping on the Zeiss bandwagon, but since they don't I'll stay with the big Pentax for the time being.
I've yet to try my Pentax with a fixed power eyepiece,a "10" would give me 63X 0r a "7" at 93X which I feel is to much. To bad Pentax dosen't make something in between}, to see what that does......at $300 a pop I'll wait till I find someone who has one I can borrow. I'd hate to be out three big ones and then decide there wasn't any advantage.
Danny
If you want compact and easily mountable on most tripods definately go with the Zeiss. Also if you need an angled eypiece pick the Zeiss as Pentax only offers this option in the PF-80ED, which can be had for half the cost of the Zeiss or big Pentax, definately a best buy in spotting scopes!!!!).
Myself, if Zeiss made a 100MM I might be selling my Pentax PF-100ED and jumping on the Zeiss bandwagon, but since they don't I'll stay with the big Pentax for the time being.
I've yet to try my Pentax with a fixed power eyepiece,a "10" would give me 63X 0r a "7" at 93X which I feel is to much. To bad Pentax dosen't make something in between}, to see what that does......at $300 a pop I'll wait till I find someone who has one I can borrow. I'd hate to be out three big ones and then decide there wasn't any advantage.
Danny
Moderator said:
As someone already noted, I'd definitely look at a Cassegrain or a Schmidt-Cassegrain. Celestron and Meade,probably others) make outstanding optics though it might be more practical for a spotter behind you than you yourself.
As for LCD's, I notice you definitely are seeing it as the wave of the future. I'm not so sure I agree, for a few reasons. But in THIS context it's simply a matter of usability. I have 3...one digital camera, one digital camcorder and one laptop. And not one of those screens is worth a hoot in light brighter than the screen itself. In outdoor daylight even shading the screen isn't enough to get a good image as scattered light simply washes the image out. I don't know how that could be solved. -Rod-
There is an old write up on a meade ETX 90mm Maksutov -Cassegrain in May 01 Vol. 49 Precision shooting . Sold under the weaver brand name,still made by Meade.
They had witnessed reports of 1 mile reading of a license plate . 1000yd "see a .223 hole "with perfect light / viewing conditions.
They are listed at $399 with a 48X eye piece 26 mm . The 1000yd .223 hole sounds like BS. It may not be super sharp in resolution as a big brand. but very Bright for the size / cost.
I may try one as a low priced experiment. I have a lot of eyepieces / telescope parts, so it works for me.
Hans
They had witnessed reports of 1 mile reading of a license plate . 1000yd "see a .223 hole "with perfect light / viewing conditions.
They are listed at $399 with a 48X eye piece 26 mm . The 1000yd .223 hole sounds like BS. It may not be super sharp in resolution as a big brand. but very Bright for the size / cost.
I may try one as a low priced experiment. I have a lot of eyepieces / telescope parts, so it works for me.
Hans
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Administrator
DREEVER said:
Danny, The Maksutov and Cassegrain both use far fewer individual pieces of glass than a typical rifle-scope or spotting scope. IF the front objective is well-made AND the mirrors are good, there's the potential for a bright, sharp image. But for $400... I just can't say. There are some low-cost Cassegrains coming out of China now. I would be fun to try something in the $800 range.
Mak:
LINK Maksutov: http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/M/Maksutov_telescope.html
Cassegrain:
LINK Cassegrain: http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/Schmidt-Cassegrain_telescope.html
It would be very interesting to get one of these Meades and try it out.
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I'd love to give the Weaver,meade) ETX-125 a try. It ship with a 26mm viewing lens that translates to 73x magnification. I think that's just about right for viewing bullet holes at 600. It all comes down to clarity.
I like the fact that, even at 73x, you have a 40' field of view at 1000 yards,or 24' at 600 yards). That lets you see a couple target frames and maybe a wind flag.
Here's the Weaver ETX-90,48x magnification). The ETX-125 is bigger and heavier all the way around:
Optics Planet has the ETX-90 with two lenses,48x and 83x) for $299.00. Hmmmm... And their "Outlet" price is $239.00: http://cgi.ebay.com/Weaver-ETX-90-UHTC-Spotting-Scope-by-Meade-with-2_W0QQitemZ220047243018QQihZ012QQcategoryZ31715QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
One thing I do note is that none of these sub-$700 Cassegrains seen to have Flourite or LD,low dispersion) glass. That surely would make a difference in ultimate sharpness.
I like the fact that, even at 73x, you have a 40' field of view at 1000 yards,or 24' at 600 yards). That lets you see a couple target frames and maybe a wind flag.
Here's the Weaver ETX-90,48x magnification). The ETX-125 is bigger and heavier all the way around:
Optics Planet has the ETX-90 with two lenses,48x and 83x) for $299.00. Hmmmm... And their "Outlet" price is $239.00: http://cgi.ebay.com/Weaver-ETX-90-UHTC-Spotting-Scope-by-Meade-with-2_W0QQitemZ220047243018QQihZ012QQcategoryZ31715QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
One thing I do note is that none of these sub-$700 Cassegrains seen to have Flourite or LD,low dispersion) glass. That surely would make a difference in ultimate sharpness.
Here is a Weaver 125 mm for $448,,, I just ordered one .
Stand by for a report.
http://www.ebinoculars.com/products/Weaver_125mm_-_ETX_Spotter_17973.html
For smaller scope stands the 13 lb 125mm 15 -20 inch long rig may be a bit large, the numbers are a bit off from Meade to Weaver on the weights with a 90mm scope as low as 4.5 lbs.
When the 90mm is 7.8 lbs at 12 -15 inches, looking at the numbers 125mm would be 35% brighter / sharper than the 90mm.The 26mm eye piece listed at 48X, 15 mm at 83 X on the 90mm scope . So 20- 30mm might be a good range'
Those Cassegrains are a bit strange, heat or a good bump can knock them out of alignment - collimation .Less of a problem on the smaller units. With a disc / tool its easy to line them up, quicker than sighting in a rifle scope .If your not a tinkerer it might be a problem.
My 8" Meade Cassegrain star scope is pretty sharp.
Hans
Stand by for a report.
http://www.ebinoculars.com/products/Weaver_125mm_-_ETX_Spotter_17973.html
For smaller scope stands the 13 lb 125mm 15 -20 inch long rig may be a bit large, the numbers are a bit off from Meade to Weaver on the weights with a 90mm scope as low as 4.5 lbs.
When the 90mm is 7.8 lbs at 12 -15 inches, looking at the numbers 125mm would be 35% brighter / sharper than the 90mm.The 26mm eye piece listed at 48X, 15 mm at 83 X on the 90mm scope . So 20- 30mm might be a good range'
Those Cassegrains are a bit strange, heat or a good bump can knock them out of alignment - collimation .Less of a problem on the smaller units. With a disc / tool its easy to line them up, quicker than sighting in a rifle scope .If your not a tinkerer it might be a problem.
My 8" Meade Cassegrain star scope is pretty sharp.
Hans
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Administrator
Hans,
Definitely give us a report. That's an awful good price you found. The ETX-125 should be brighter than the ETX-90. But as to sharper--well there are many things in the equation, including lens final polish, mirror quality/uniformity etc.
The key thing we are looking for is the ability to make out 6mm or smaller bullet holes at 600 yards. On white/orange background that would be good. If it can pick out bullet holes on black, that would be spectacular.
Under ideal conditions, I've been able to make out 6mm bullet holes at 600 on white paper with a NightForce 10-42x cranked all the way up--but I might only be able to see 3 out of a group of 5.
Definitely give us a report. That's an awful good price you found. The ETX-125 should be brighter than the ETX-90. But as to sharper--well there are many things in the equation, including lens final polish, mirror quality/uniformity etc.
The key thing we are looking for is the ability to make out 6mm or smaller bullet holes at 600 yards. On white/orange background that would be good. If it can pick out bullet holes on black, that would be spectacular.
Under ideal conditions, I've been able to make out 6mm bullet holes at 600 on white paper with a NightForce 10-42x cranked all the way up--but I might only be able to see 3 out of a group of 5.
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What is intriguing to me is that the Meade/Weaver can take std. 1.25" Astronomy eye-pieces if I understand correctly. With a high-grade eyepiece, such as the Pentax XW wide-view, you could get in the power range "sweet spot" which I think is about 60-75x for our game. Those lenses cost about $250-$350 street price. But if you could get an ETX-90 for $250 or so, you've got a potentially ultra-sharp system for under $600 IF the front objective and the mirrors are good.
Pentax ultrawide line-up, see http://www.handsonoptics.com/spt_pentax.html ):
Specs: "The series has expanded from seven focal lengths to eight from 3.5 mm to 40 mm. The XW series features a wide apparent angle of view,70 degrees), JIS Class 4 weatherproof construction and a long eye relief,20 mm). We have tested them and the eye lenses are very wide and have a huge "sweetspot", unlike some wide field eyepieces. The new design uses ED Lanthanum glass and the world's best PENTAX-SMC multilayer coatings." ,The XWzoom is an 8-24mm eyepiece that gives 26-78X on a 100mm scope, which is just about ideal.)
My 2 cents--Long Eye Relief makes a spotting scope much, much more user friendly in the field.
I've heard that the Meade/Weaver Cassegrains are better than the Celestrons. We will be very interested to hear your report.
Pentax ultrawide line-up, see http://www.handsonoptics.com/spt_pentax.html ):
Specs: "The series has expanded from seven focal lengths to eight from 3.5 mm to 40 mm. The XW series features a wide apparent angle of view,70 degrees), JIS Class 4 weatherproof construction and a long eye relief,20 mm). We have tested them and the eye lenses are very wide and have a huge "sweetspot", unlike some wide field eyepieces. The new design uses ED Lanthanum glass and the world's best PENTAX-SMC multilayer coatings." ,The XWzoom is an 8-24mm eyepiece that gives 26-78X on a 100mm scope, which is just about ideal.)
My 2 cents--Long Eye Relief makes a spotting scope much, much more user friendly in the field.
I've heard that the Meade/Weaver Cassegrains are better than the Celestrons. We will be very interested to hear your report.
I have a swarovski 6-24mm 1.25 zoom eyepiece on a tele-vu erector . I think I need a 40 mm eyepiece for 100 - 200yds at 47 X,I know a fixed eyepiece will be sharper . Sometimes if you go too wide you start to see the edges /rings of the mirror /elements.
There were some celestron and orion scopes that were cheaper. Their reviews were bad, too much of an unknown quantity .I just hope I didn't buy a gray market knock off.
I machined up a small ground level high power rifle scope stand. We'll see how that works out.
Hans
There were some celestron and orion scopes that were cheaper. Their reviews were bad, too much of an unknown quantity .I just hope I didn't buy a gray market knock off.
I machined up a small ground level high power rifle scope stand. We'll see how that works out.
Hans
I just had a few hours to play with the Weaver 125mm scope .
1.Looks good so far.
2.Optics are made in USA
3.Tube and base could be Asian.
4.The green color is darker than the ad.
5.All Meade eyepieces
6.It needs a stout tripod.
I can see the direction of a door knobs key slot
at 450 yd,laser ranged ) with the sun at my back.
I haven't done any 500 -600 yd 6 mm hole tests yet.
Stand by for more. Hans
1.Looks good so far.
2.Optics are made in USA
3.Tube and base could be Asian.
4.The green color is darker than the ad.
5.All Meade eyepieces
6.It needs a stout tripod.
I can see the direction of a door knobs key slot
at 450 yd,laser ranged ) with the sun at my back.
I haven't done any 500 -600 yd 6 mm hole tests yet.
Stand by for more. Hans
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