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sorting brass and bullet data for best accurac

Hi all,

I have been getting deep into reloading, I have a tendency to embrace things with gusto or not embrace them at all, this is no exception. First off, I realize that there is such a thing as overkill, especially without a custom rifle (I have a new 700 5R) but I enjoy the pursuit of excellence for just that, the pursuit ☺

To date I have manages to get my reloading down well enough that I average 0.52 MOA at 300 yards (on average over last few hundred rounds). I have spend a lot of time and a lot of money on equipment (a lot for me anyway)
I have a very accurate glass enclosed scale that gets me to 0.02 grains, I have competition dies, a Redding instant indicator, a run out gauge/corrector (Hornady), Wilson seating die with arbor press. I practice as consistent a reloading process as I can. I sort bullets (weight and base to ogive). Each case is measured from base to Datum (DL) length as well as volume with 99% iso-alcohol (I have a neat item I made to allow this to be done with a deprimed, cleaned and reedy to go case)

I hand turn the case neck thickness on each case, polish the inside case neck wall, deburr with 0000 steel wool Then ultrasonically clean each case, all after the obligatory vibratory tumble and primer pocket uniforming and deburring. I measure case wall expansion after seating as well as pressure needed to seat the bullet

I use:
Lapua Brass
CCI-BR2 primer
Varget
SMK 168 HPBT

My question is this. At the end of the process I have a lot of data. When I select the bullets and cases to match together, what would you find folks say is best sort order to use in properly grouping cases and bullets for consistent groupings.

My thinking is that these two are most important
1. Base to DATUM
2. Case volume

I don’t think that case weight is that important since I measure volume, my cases are all same COL (+/-0.001)

As far as bullets, I think the Base to Ogive is most important then weight (SMK is very consistent, I just look for the occasional, rare, outlier)

Any suggestions on how to best group the data so that like bullets, cases and eventually rounds, are near each other when I go to the range

Thanks all

BTW, I just started doing this in May, like I said, I have embraced this with a fair amount of seriousness.

All the best

John
 
Grouping your best(most consistent) bullets with your best(most consistent) brass should give you the best(most consistent) loaded ammo.
 
Thanks for the quick comment, but I think What I was hitting at is this, if I sort by brass with lowest amount of fingerprints on the case and group by that it would be reduculouse, but it would still be a sort criteria, what I am looking for is feedback as to, given all of the criteria, what is most important to group by first, then seconds, third and so on. If you think about this is terms of a spreadsheet, the sort criteria order will generate a given implied grouping, that sort order should be first by most significant factor in consistency, then second, etc

Thanks all (I admitt, my question was not as clear as it could have been)
 
You are doing a lot in your reloading process.

All I can say is I do about 1/2 of what you do, and I shoot with people who takes their brass and bullets straight out of the box and loads them. The only thing their maticulous about is their powder measurement. They can hold a 3" 5 shot group @ 600 yds, again with Lapua brass and smk's straight out of the box.

Our Military doesn't even have the time to process reloads like you do! But your groups are pretty good, maybe it's part of the process or your a good shooter.

FYI

Dennis
 
The one thing I do that I have not seen mentioned is weigh each primer. It's just one more variable to keep constant.
 
I,m no guru, but I think things will get a bit complicated if you batch into too many different criterior. How about if you arrange the cases in the ammo box so the cases go from least volume on one end to most volume at the other end of the box.
When measuring bullets, how about using 2 comparators so that you measure the bearing surface. Load bullets with least bearing surface at one end to longest bearing surface at the other end.
This way you will have a full box of ammo to use which wont be jumping between wildly different volumes or bearing surfaces. You might be able to concentrate more on wind/mirage/hold etc instead of your ammo.
I dont know of anyone who sorts by case datum length or bullet diameter, but then I,m not averaging groups as small as yours yet.
 
Thanks for the replies guys, can't believe the comments, feedback, input in just one afternoon. . .my first post too.

I shoot with a lead sled and a nice scope too (NightForce NSX) so it's not like in a F1 competition I can shoot.52 MOA (no slead). Up until I started really concentrating on my reloading, I mean every detail, i did not have as good of groups, 1 MOA at best. Funny thing is that every 4 or 5 groups I will shoot a group that is crazy tight, my best 2 weeks ago made one hole at 300 yrs, crazy, I thought I just could not see the holes in the target, some others I shoot under .25 moa and these compensate for the occasional fliers that seem to put me to 1 moa on other groups. . .it's these fliers that are killing me. I added some recent tricks that rally seemed to help. I apply Rain-X on a q-tip, to the inside neck, polish the inside with steel wool wrapped around a bronze boring brush and polish the inside with that. I noticed that I have a very consistent seating pressure, averaging around 6 pounts of pressure on a food scale using the Wilson seater and an arbor press (I video the scale for review after loading). I assume my FPS has tightened up but won't know until the next time I go out as I just got my CRONY.

I will sort primers too, good idea. . .as I say , if your going to go the the level of overkill, what's another step.

I realize there is a huge diff between 300 and 600 (or 1000) F1 competition, I am working on reading heatwaves for shifts in wind direction, thing is, I don't go to the range if it's even the least bit breezy, I don't want nature influencing my reloading results. I also found a good amount of group tightening when I put the anti cant level on my NightForce a couple of moths ago, amazing how hard it is to know when a rifle is actually vertical vs feels vertical.

Part of my long winded essays ara about sharing things I have noticed that help, hope i mention something valuable to some in the pusuit of the highest level of consistancy thay can get.

Also wanted to toss out a "happy labor day" to you fine folks.

All the best

John
 
I shoot with a lead sled

This could be a problem, I understand they affect barrel harmonics during shooting which will waste all your efforts put forth in reloading. Open to discussion.

With what you stated above, I would view this that your saying to hold 3" at 600yd, some of the groups would be much smaller then 3" and the worse groups would be 3", hence "can hold 3".

No . . . The smallest group I have ever seen was 3" @ 600 yds. I personally havn't seen anthing smaller. I pulled for this gentlemen one time when he scored a 200/19x @ 600 yds. All went into the X ring which is 3" and one shot was barely over the X line in the ten ring, but all shots were within 3"'s.

At 300 yds, I have seen 5 shot groups that would fit within a quarter.

I am waiting for the day when I can do this.

Unbelievable when you see it, he was shooting a 6BRX, McGowen 30"barrel, 1.16 " thick chamber to muzzle one a Bernard Action. 107grains, with out of the box 107 SMK's-Varget powder. SEB front rest, Edgewood rear bag.

SEB and Farley are about the best front rest out there. Rear bags, I guess it's your preference.

I noticed that I have a very consistent seating pressure

Above very important. IMO . . . a clean chamber, brass, bullets are also important
 
The first thing I always do is weigh the primers and sort my weight...Then the brass is all weighted...as well as the bullets....I weight every powder charge.I use the lee dippers and then do a finger trickle if needed...All bullets are sorted by weight and length....Seems like a lot of work but it pays off in perfect scores..Most of the time,that is...
 
CoverDog said:
The one thing I do that I have not seen mentioned is weigh each primer. It's just one more variable to keep constant.

I thought that I was fairly thorough in my reloading practices. Looks like I still have a bit more work to do! ::)
 
memilanuk said:
Oh do tell, oh sorters of primers... exactly what criteria do you use?

I will take a brick of primers and weigh to the nearest 2/100's of a grain. I put them in a Plano waterproof (rubber seal) plastic divided fishing tackle container. Compartments are 1.25"x1.25" and I label each compartment with the weight. Once done, I put them back in 100 packs and mark with the weight. I keep some in the container for range work.

CCI 450's run from 3.66gr to 3.76gr. and CCI BR 4's range from 3.70gr to 3.80gr. any that fall out of these ranges are used for fouling shots. I use all one weight primers for all sighters and then for the record rounds.

With all the work we all do to keep every loaded round as close to identical as possible it's just another piece of the puzzle. I have no evidence to prove if it helps, but it can't hurt.
 
Next I would like to here about seating bullets in conjunction with barometric pressure, humidity, and temp. When seating bullets in a low barometer reading, would it be safe to assume that the air pressure inside the case is less than with a high reading? Powder needs oxygen to burn if there is more or less in the case on ignition would that not effect burn rate? Humidity would also need to be addressed, as it to would have an effect on burn rate. And,as we all know, temperature is always an issue. And lets not forget condensation inside the case when moving from a cool car to the summer heat.

Sorry guys, can't resist, I am enjoying this quite a bit, and yes, I have learned a few useful ideas along the way, thanks. :D
 
Yikes,
Lead sled causing interference with harmonics :'(

I use a sled that the rifle rests on, not locked into, does that help (with not messing with harmonics)? Also, it is a free floating barrel, does that help??

i am close to the point where I am going to put by bi-pod back on and work of form (me), but I (and maybe mistakenly so) thought that, when examining impact of changing variables, removing "me" from the equation would be a good thing. I understand the harmonics issue (sound through steel = 18,000 ft/sec causes the sound to travel back and forth through the barrel many times before the bullet has even left the barrel, if the "steel" sound wave is at the end of the barrel when the bullet leaves it can mess things up down range. . . please correct me if I am mistaken here :-) )

thanks again

I just thought that the barrel, being free floating, would not be effected by this
 
CoverDog said:
With all the work we all do to keep every loaded round as close to identical as possible it's just another piece of the puzzle. I have no evidence to prove if it helps, but it can't hurt.

Interesting... I would have thought, given the handful of responses saying 'weigh your primers' that *someone* out there would be able to provide some sort of evidence, be it empirical, anecdotal, whatever, as to the benefits realized from this process.
 
dmoran said:
They can hold a 3" 5 shot group @ 600 yds, again with Lapua brass and smk's straight out of the box.

DennisH -
With what you stated above, I would view this that your saying to hold 3" at 600yd, some of the groups would be much smaller then 3" and the worse groups would be 3", hence "can hold 3".
Is this what your stating when you say they "hold 3" @ 600yds"?

If so, I would say they are doing outstanding !!! Especially for just "grabbing, reloading, shooting".
For me, even from my 600/1000-BR rifles, I could never get that kind of accuracy with out a lot more meticulous details in my reloading.

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran

Donovan
Last month at a match Dennis and I participated in a young man shooting next to me with a 6BRX shot 19X's out of twenty rounds at 600 (not a sanctioned match therefor no record). He shot a clean and I am not sure which shot was the ten. As you know the X ring at 600 in F Class is 3" so I can vouch for what Dennis is saying. To shoot 1" at 300 yards is "less than" 1/2 MOA and outstanding in my opinion. I think we over analyze the standard basics of reloading sometimes to gain difficult to measure results. If I could consistently shoot less than 1/2 MOA at 600-1000 yards my life would be fulfilled. ;D
 
memilanuk said:
CoverDog said:
With all the work we all do to keep every loaded round as close to identical as possible it's just another piece of the puzzle. I have no evidence to prove if it helps, but it can't hurt.

Interesting... I would have thought, given the handful of responses saying 'weigh your primers' that *someone* out there would be able to provide some sort of evidence, be it empirical, anecdotal, whatever, as to the benefits realized from this process.

Weighing primers was something that was covered in loading for 1k competition several years ago at The Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Bench Rest Club's shooting school.

In the 2 brands of primers that I was weighing they varied from 3.6-3.7 grains and 3.7-3.8 grains. That's either a 2.75% or 2.69% difference from the lightest to heaviest primer. That would equal almost a 3 grain difference in a 105 grain bullet. I know of no one that would use bullets that varied that much. As taught at the shooting school as long as you use all components that weigh the same, brass, bullets and primers for your sighters and your record rounds you will have a better chance of getting everything as consistent as possible.
 
I understand the theory ::)

I'm more interested in actual results of sorted vs. un-sorted, or light vs. heavy.
 
offgridkid said:
Yikes,
Lead sled causing interference with harmonics :'(

I use a sled that the rifle rests on, not locked into, does that help (with not messing with harmonics)? Also, it is a free floating barrel, does that help??

i am close to the point where I am going to put by bi-pod back on and work of form (me), but I (and maybe mistakenly so) thought that, when examining impact of changing variables, removing "me" from the equation would be a good thing. I understand the harmonics issue (sound through steel = 18,000 ft/sec causes the sound to travel back and forth through the barrel many times before the bullet has even left the barrel, if the "steel" sound wave is at the end of the barrel when the bullet leaves it can mess things up down range. . . please correct me if I am mistaken here :-) )

thanks again

I just thought that the barrel, being free floating, would not be effected by this

I can vouch for the lead sled not working or whatever....While trying to work up loads for a 22-250 once
I used the sled.Thinking it would help taking as much human error as possible....
But one day I went to the range and left the sled home.Shot of the bags as usuall...THE same loads as befor..
To my surprise,it shot 100 percent better than with the sled....I think the sled was having a large effect on the harmonis of the barrel...
 

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