Sorry..I have a 17 fireball brass forming question

[bobcat93]

Hello, I have posted a few topics pertaining to the 17 fireball. Please bare with me.
I have brand new lapua 221 fire ball brass I'm forming into 17 fireball.
What I purchased to execute the task at hand is as listed.
Redding 17 fireball deluxe 3 die set # 84204
Redding 17 fireball forming die #1 - #90504
Redding 17 fireball form & trim die #2 - #83504
And redding brand imperial sizing wax..I have used it for years and personally think its the best.

After I run my brass through the dies the end of the case neck seems kind of mushroomed/ or has a slight donut on it if you will, and the end of the case neck is not square anymore. It's longer on one side then the others..that is to say ..if I were to measure the case length with my dial caliper I could get a few different readings by rotating the case( I hope you understand what I'm saying)
It looks like I need to turn case necks, and trim cases to even out the neck and square up the end of the case.
Is this normal? Am I doing something wrong?
Also I got to thinking..mybe I should just finish forming all my cases, the use the cream of wheat case forming method be fore I do anything, like neck turning, or trimming the case square. Ass this is 221 fireball brass formed into 17 fireball the case length is already slightly less then it should be.

Can anyone please direct me towards what I should do..or is this all normal
The k you

 

[bobcat93]

Here is a pic of a 221 fireball case I formed into 17fireball with a cockeyed case mouth

 

[hogpatrol]

What's your process? Are you trying to squeeze the .221 FB neck directly to .17? If so that's way too much to take in one step. Also, are the form dies the type S bushing dies? Need just a tad more info on your procedure.

 

[bobcat93]

The dies I have listed are what I'm using.
I first lube neck and shoulder then run it up into die #1
I believe this redding die necks it down to .20 cal
Then I lightly lube and run it up into die #2
This form / trim die necks the case down to .17 cal.
Then I lube inside case neck and full length size.
Wipe case clean and set it aside.

(I did NOT purchase many neck bushing does)

 

[varmintshooter]

After forming you should trim to length and that will solve your problem. Another thing that I do is to turn the necks before necking down as this will allow the end of cut to be on the shoulder rather than on the neck.

 

[hogpatrol]

After forming you should trim to length and that will solve your problem. Another thing that I do is to turn the necks before necking down as this will allow the end of cut to be on the shoulder rather than on the neck.

+1

 

[bobcat93]

Let's discuss the fact I am forming from 221 fireball, once the case is neck down to 17 cal. It is already shorter then suggested trim length. In order for me to square up the case mouth I need to trim cases and they will be even shorter. Does it matter if the case is a little shorter.
Does it become an (it is, what it is thing)....also I have parts coming from Sinclair international for my neck Turner.

So the general consensus is :
Turn necks first, what diameter do you turn to?. ( before necking down cases?)
Then trim cases just enough to square up case necks.

 

[vmaxpro]

Bobcat, clean out your dies and just lube the body, not the neck or shoulder.

 

[bobcat93]

I will try that right now, as I'm at the reloading bench
Also can any one tell me that the neck thickness is of there brass.
And if they turn necks what is the thickness they are cutting them ?
I see the reloading manuals say a loaded case should be .204 OD. If bullets are .172 that would make a neck that is .016.. That seems allfully thick to me..but maybe the 17 fireball likes thick necks..
Can some one measure the neck thickness of remington 17 fireball factory brass and post dimensions.
Thanks.

 

[hogpatrol]

I will try that right now, as I'm at the reloading bench
Also can any one tell me that the neck thickness is of there brass.
And if they turn necks what is the thickness they are cutting them ?
I see the reloading manuals say a loaded case should be .204 OD. If bullets are .172 that would make a neck that is .016.. That seems allfully thick to me..but maybe the 17 fireball likes thick necks..
Can some one measure the neck thickness of remington 17 fireball factory brass and post dimensions.
Thanks.

Remington original .17 Fireball brass wall thickness: .013-.014
Same brass loaded diameter: .198-.199 with 25, 29, and 30 grain Kindler bullets.

With regard to all of this info, if you are doing this for a factory barrel, it is probably going to be an exercise in futility. I had two and they had very long freebore and sloppy chambers and never shot better than over an inch at 100 yds.

 

[vmaxpro]

Check out your other thread, that group was shot with factory 221 lapua brass no turn. Keep us posted!

 

[bobcat93]

Bobcat, clean out your dies and just lube the body, not the neck or shoulder.

OK..that obviously didn't work..lol..this is what happens when I don't lube cases

 

[bobcat93]

Here is what I come up with
Factory brand new lapua 221 fireball case on left, after running brass through forming dies on right. My 17 fireball case w/ crooked case mouth on right. I realize the brass needs to go somewhere when it is neck down.. So do I just trim brass what ever it takes to square up case mouth and should I be turning necks

 

[bobcat93]

I will try that right now, as I'm at the reloading bench
Also can any one tell me that the neck thickness is of there brass.
And if they turn necks what is the thickness they are cutting them ?
I see the reloading manuals say a loaded case should be .204 OD. If bullets are .172 that would make a neck that is .016.. That seems allfully thick to me..but maybe the 17 fireball likes thick necks..
Can some one measure the neck thickness of remington 17 fireball factory brass and post dimensions.
Thanks.

Thank you for your post..it was much needed..
I am building a custom barreled ar-15.. No bolt gun

Remington original .17 Fireball brass wall thickness: .013-.014
Same brass loaded diameter: .198-.199 with 25, 29, and 30 grain Kindler bullets.

With regard to all of this info, if you are doing this for a factory barrel, it is probably going to be an exercise in futility. I had two and they had very long freebore and sloppy chambers and never shot better than over an inch at 100 yds.

 

[bobcat93]

I will try that right now, as I'm at the reloading bench
Also can any one tell me that the neck thickness is of there brass.
And if they turn necks what is the thickness they are cutting them ?
I see the reloading manuals say a loaded case should be .204 OD. If bullets are .172 that would make a neck that is .016.. That seems allfully thick to me..but maybe the 17 fireball likes thick necks..
Can some one measure the neck thickness of remington 17 fireball factory brass and post dimensions.
Thanks.

Remington original .17 Fireball brass wall thickness: .013-.014
Same brass loaded diameter: .198-.199 with 25, 29, and 30 grain Kindler bullets.

With regard to all of this info, if you are doing this for a factory barrel, it is probably going to be an exercise in futility. I had two and they had very long freebore and sloppy chambers and never shot better than over an inch at 100 yds.

This is going to be for a custom barreled ar-15. With a stag arms upper and lower..I'm a south paw shooter.
Unless I can find a left hand remington 700 short action for cheap to build on.( hint, hint..any one, any one)..,lol

 

[vmaxpro]

Hmmm i only use the wax on just the body? Also, is it me or does the factory brass on the left look jacked up?

 

[bobcat93]

I think it's a shadow line from factory annealing. As the body, shoulder juncture are nice and square.. After looking at the pic I see what you mean..

 

[vmaxpro]

Yea its prob the pic, ive never once seen a bad batch come from lapua! Did you get anything figured out?

 

[vmaxpro]

In the pic it looks like its buckling right below the shoulder, i think its causing it to get cocked funny. Is the die adjusted down too far maybe? When I size mine, I run them through a cut off 204 fl die and just do the neck, not touching the shoulder. Then through a 17fb fl die and their perfect. Parallel and oal is 1.396.

 

[bobcat93]

That's a good point.. Yes it is buckeled.
The first redding die necks from 22 cal. To 20 cal .
The second die necks from 20 cal. To 17 cal.
These dies were not cheap by no means. Now that I'm thinking about it I should have bought a 221 fireball bushing neck die. And about 3-4 bushings in fact I may still do that..the 2 redding forming dies together are about 130$..
I can get a bushing neck die and 4 neck bushings for that price and just keep sizing down.
I'm not sure if this will work..maybe I will call redding and talk to there tec. Guys.
I have read that some guys say to polish the crap out of the dies with filtz before use. And the dies will work pretty good..
If the bushing neck die idea will work these babies are going back..I'm not happy with the finished product I'm getting. And lapua 221 fireball brass is not cheap ..I'll see what redding says and repost maybe the dies are the issue and need a little reaming..
I bet if I send them a few pieces of my lapua brass and my dies they will fix it up..( things like this is why I stick with redding, there C.S. is the best)..
So to answer the question ( NO)
The only thing I figured out was how the to mangle 221 lapua brass , spend money, and keep busy at the reloading bench on a Saturday morning.. For that this process was 100% top notch..lol..
Live and learn.