Sorry, another chronograph question

[Mozella]

I picked up a ProChrono here........ snip ............ I have put about 1000 rounds over the ProChrono with very few dropped shots. The ones it did have where very late in the afternoon. I am very happy with both purchases. A chrono really helps when working up a load IMO. I hope this helps.

You make my point about the evolution of electronics; i.e. they quickly become better and cheaper. The ProChrono sells for around $103, it's maximum recommended temperature is 100F, it only stores a maximum of 9 shot strings, and the precision is +/- 1%.

In comparison, the Caldwell sells for around $70, has a maxumum temperature rating of 120F, has precision reported to be +/1 .25%, and I'm not sure how many shot strings the app stores, but a whole lot more than 9, that's for sure. In other words, it bests the ProChrono in every category.

Not to say that there is anything wrong with the ProChrono; however, electronics improve quickly and no matter how attractive a ProChrono may have been in the past, I find it hard to ignore the new kid on the block (Caldwell) with better pricing and performance.

Of course, it won't be long before the Caldwell is surpassed by an even better unit, but for now I think it provides a lot of bang for the buck and the smart phone app is appealing too. It's a lot easier to upgrade an app than the brains inside a chronograph.

 

[CaptainMal]

Wait. A bit confusing.

The ProChrony may have 9 "shot strings" but you can shoot lots and lots of shots in each string. I do not know how many but have been over 20 on one string. Then it calculated ES and SD during the review.

Not saying it's a good one but it works for me.

When I read ratings on the Caldwell there are many cussing the things out as being garbage. Again, don't know.

Oehler works and has always had a good reputation as being a "standard".

 

[calgarycanada]

So far Caldwell is winning here. Anyone else wants to vote before I order Caldwell??

 

[Mozella]

Wait. A bit confusing.

The ProChrony may have 9 "shot strings" but you can shoot lots and lots of shots in each string. I do not know how many but have been over 20 on one string. Then it calculated ES and SD during the review.

Not saying it's a good one but it works for me.

When I read ratings on the Caldwell there are many cussing the things out as being garbage. Again, don't know.

Oehler works and has always had a good reputation as being a "standard".

I say it again, there is nothing "wrong" with the ProChronograph however, it is a bit limited in some areas but that's understandable given the way electronics evolve. Although you can combine a lot of shots in a string, I find myself returning from a day at the range having test fired 30 or 40 five shot groups with each group being slightly different in some way, bullet, charge weight, seating depth, primer type, etc. So, for me at least, averaging the velocity for these groups defeats the purpose of using a chronograph in the first place. I need each 5 shot group to be measured and stored separately. The Caldwell does that with ease.

It's true that there were plenty of bad reviews of the Caldwell unit in the recent past. I've had several phone discussions with the folks who make the Caldwell and they confirm that there was a flaw in one of the components on some of the circuit boards. They have identified and repaired or replaced the defective units (for free as far as I know) and the current batch of chronographs offered for sale have the latest version of the circuit.

I haven't read any negative reviews of the current version and my particular unit works well.

I know that Oehler has a good reputation, but it costs almost exactly five times as much as the Caldwell. Plus it uses an inconvenient (for me at least) printer. I much prefer the Caldwell Smart Phone interface.

Of course, everyone can make their own choice, but someone is going to have to do a lot of convincing to make me believe the Oehler is five times as good as the Caldwell.

 

[hogdogger]

I'm sorry guys, I know how sometimes these threads get repetitive.

I'm looking to buy new chronograph, it will be used to develop loads for target shooting. So ES and SD numbers are important. I had magnetospeed but didn't like it coz I like to shoot all the shots during load development over chronograph and magnetospeed was affecting rifle tune(big time in my case). I also have shooting chrony but I don't trust it coz it was way off when I tested it against magnetospeed.
So I have narrowed my search down to 3 of the following (35p is out of budget)

CED M2 ~ $300 (cad), gets good reviews, little more setup time, Bryan Litz's test proves it's good unit

CE ProChronograph ~ $160, good reviews, easy to setup, not sure about its accuracy and precision

Caldwell ~ $180 (kit with IR), good reviews, easiest to setup, convenience of data on phone, IR lights included, but no reliable reviews, again not sure about accuracy and precision

Which one would you experts pick and if you can also include why that'll be great.
Big thanks in advance
Av

I think you need to run your analysis again. http://www.magnetospeed.com/ is in a different league. Regards JCS

You are right about magnetospeed, it is one accurate unit but as I mentioned in OP the only thing I didn't like about it is that it changed barrel tune. My 308 benchmark MTU contour barrel shot great with it on, when I took it off the same load was a shotgun pattern, I couldn't go up in charge coz of compression and pressure so I ended up dropping 1.1 grain powder charge to bring it back in tune. After lot of wasted time and components I learned my lesson. I like to shoot all load development shots over chronograph and I can't do that with magnetospeed.

With all due respect CC,

I feel you have one of the best chrono's already in the magnetospeed. I understand you said you want to shoot all load development over the chrono. Why not find and tune a load to your rifle first? Then chrono out your load that you have already tuned therefore only needing speed data for drop charts etc.?

 

[amlevin]

However, this I do know, DO NOT buy a P.A.C.T. Professional. It is the worst pile of maggot excrement claiming to be a chronograph!

That's strange. I've been using one for several years now and it works just fine. In fact just last week it was the only one on the line that was working. Several "fold-a-box" chrony's, a Magneto Speed, and a CED were causing their owners to cuss up a storm. The Magneto Speed owner was bitching that it caused a change in POI of over 3 inches at 300 Y. The rest weren't getting any readings at all.

My PACT was recording shot after shot and I was able to just print the results when done.


I won't argue that PACT has the worst customer service ever conceived, starting with the a-hole that answers the phone. If you send something in for repair they just take care of it when they get around to it and it can take several months. I did this ONCE and then figured out that the problem is all about batteries. I replaced the single 9V battery pack with a larger battery pack of my own "build" (Radio shack has packs that hold 6 AA Batteries that work fine.)

FWIW, All optical chronographs have issues with light. To avoid them get one that uses I/R sensors and you can read speeds in total darkness if you want.

 

[amlevin]

Why not find and tune a load to your rifle first? Then chrono out your load that you have already tuned therefore only needing speed data for drop charts etc.?

It's nice to watch the effect a change in charge weight has on the speed, SD, and ES as you work your load up. Ever had a load suddenly drop in speed as you increased the charge weight? Have SD suddenly increase as you increased the charge with no other change in parameter?

Some like to see the whole "chart" including speed change per increment, effect on SD/ES, as the charge weights increase.

Then again, there are others that don't use a chrono at all. Just work up a load and then do their speed calc's based on actual bullet drops at various distances using a ballistics program.

 

[ridgeway]

........ snip.............
The phone app is OK, it is utilitarian. It's nice not to have to record data manually during strings. ................snip ..........

I talked to the Caldwell guys a week or so ago and they told me the I phone app has already been updated and the Android version will be updated in a week or so. Check for the new version.

I suggested a dozen improvements, which they assure me are included in the new app. If that's true, it should be much easier to use.

Although the Caldwell is inexpensive, it's one of the newest designs on the market. Anyone who has been following electronics for very many years knows that they get better and cheaper at the same time. The Caldwell has a much faster clock than chronographs designed a few years ago, and that alone will help precision. I'm thrilled with mine and for seventy bucks I don't see why anyone would buy something else. Unless you shoot indoors or at night, you don't need the lights and any cheap photo tripod, especially from a flea market or garage sale, will be much cheaper and better than the one supplied with the deluxe kit.

My Android would not connect to the chrono. I contacted Caldwell and they sent me a USB cable which works flawless now.

 

[DukeDuke]

I have a Caldwell, I like it.

 

[calgarycanada]

Why not find and tune a load to your rifle first? Then chrono out your load that you have already tuned therefore only needing speed data for drop charts etc.?

It's nice to watch the effect a change in charge weight has on the speed, SD, and ES as you work your load up. Ever had a load suddenly drop in speed as you increased the charge weight? Have SD suddenly increase as you increased the charge with no other change in parameter?

Some like to see the whole "chart" including speed change per increment, effect on SD/ES, as the charge weights increase.

Then again, there are others that don't use a chrono at all. Just work up a load and then do their speed calc's based on actual bullet drops at various distances using a ballistics program.

^^^ you spoke my mind. I have my approx velocity and exact drops already but it's nice to see what velocity is doing, blame myself & not load when I get elevation shot, tune quickload and diagnose issues where load suddenly goes out of tune. Those are few of my reasons anyway.

 

[hogdogger]

Donovan and amlevin, Understood, Been there and agree with what youre saying.

Ive used Oehler since the early 80's and picked up the MS before most knew about it. Ive only experienced POI change but never affected group size for me anyway. And this is over a sample size of at least a 100 different rifles. But I have read that others have had different experiences.

My response was due to CC stating he re-tuned his rifles load after the fact (and Im assuming here) without the MS to where he wanted it. And claimed wasted time and components so I felt since he already had the MS which is a great chrono IMO why not just tune a load and chrono it. No more no less!

Good Shooting to all!

CC wish you the best in your search!

 

[jlow]

FWIW, the accuracy of an Ohler 35P with a 4' rail is 4 fps for a round moving around 3,000 fps - that's an accuracy of 0.13%.

For comparison, a chrony that has an error rate of 1% at the same speed will have an accuracy of 30 fps - not very useful. Think about using the chronograph to look for a precision load that has a SDEV of 10 fps or less.

 

[amlevin]

My response was due to CC stating he re-tuned his rifles load after the fact (and Im assuming here) without the MS to where he wanted it. And claimed wasted time and components so I felt since he already had the MS which is a great chrono IMO why not just tune a load and chrono it. No more no less!

Good Shooting to all!

CC wish you the best in your search!

Maybe those who are avid Magneto Speed users could just put it on a scale, weigh it, and then build a collar that weighs the same to be put on the end of the barrel when the MS is not installed. Other than the effect of he "bayonet" lifting the bullet on a cushion of compressed gases, that would compensate for the weight hanging off the end.

Then again, why not just build a dummy mount that matches all the parameters of the magnetospeed and shoot matches with it installed. (a then try to make weight if there's a limit )

 

[amlevin]

FWIW, the accuracy of an Ohler 35P with a 4' rail is 4 fps for a round moving around 3,000 fps - that's an accuracy of 0.13%.

For comparison, a chrony that has an error rate of 1% at the same speed will have an accuracy of 30 fps - not very useful. Think about using the chronograph to look for a precision load that has a SDEV of 10 fps or less.

Now if they just weren't so darned long and bulky. I have enough trouble finding room in my car just for the rifle. Darn thing is too long for both the trunk or back seat (or is it that the car is too small? ) Either way, the Ohler is no small item.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much speed the bullet drops off just traveling the distance between the sensors on an Ohler

 

[jlow]

They are long and bulky, there is no doubt of that. Mine being with the 4’ rail permanently sits on the floor next to my back seat. The rest of the gear, the sky screens, printer, and tripod sit in a wooden box I made for it in my trunk. I have been using mine for about 3 years and have found ways to set it up pretty fast ~usually around 2-3 minutes but if the LaRadar works as well, I would switch in a heartbeat!

In terms of the speed drop, it’s an interesting question so I ran a test for you. So assuming a .260 Rem shooting a 140 Berger Hybrid with an MV of 2,884 fps at the muzzle, 3 yards away (close enough to 10 feet, the program only does yards), the MV would be 2,879 fps (5 fps drop), but within the Ohler’s 2 screens which is 4’ apart but let’s just use 1 yard, the drop would be to 2,878 fps so only 1 fps so not exactly a lot. But seriously, Ohler being Ohler, I seriously doubt if he does not take that into account when they quote you a number…

 

[calgarycanada]

My response was due to CC stating he re-tuned his rifles load after the fact (and Im assuming here) without the MS to where he wanted it. And claimed wasted time and components so I felt since he already had the MS which is a great chrono IMO why not just tune a load and chrono it. No more no less!

Good Shooting to all!

CC wish you the best in your search!

I only tried MS on two of my rifles and my 308 with Benchmark MTU barrel was the one that was affected a lot and I had to re-tune it. I chased my own tail for a while. I had to redo load development. I was disappointed so I sold MS, not because it was a bad unit but coz it didn't work for me the way I wanted it to. MS is a great unit, very reliable, repeatable and accurate but not for me. Labradar is very interesting but kind of out of budget.

 

[Killick]

I concur with the others concerning the Caldwell, It is cheap but works like a spendy name brand 2 to 3 times the price...and it records your data on your phone. Super easy to set up and I recently saw a hack for how to set up a chronograph with a cheapo laser bore sighter without going back and forth and pissing off other shooters waiting for you to get your set up perfect. Set up your rifle as level as you can on your target. Stick in the laser bore sighter and turn it on, go out when it's safe and set up your chrono so that the laser dot is centered in the sensor line and...Bob's your uncle.

 

[Mozella]

.............. snip ............. Stick in the laser bore sighter and turn it on, go out when it's safe and set up your chrono so that the laser dot is centered in the sensor line and...Bob's your uncle.

My laser bore sighting device isn't powerful enough to illuminate a card or my hand held above the chrono. Plus I don't like shining lasers on my retina. I just stick in a regular cheap bore light (couple of bucks at Wally World), get 10 to 15 feet in front of my rifle (already aimed at the target), sight down the bore til the light is the brightest, and line up the chrono that way.

 

[jlow]

I've used a Ohler with 4' rail for 4 years and have found a couple of short cuts to setting them up.

One I start by putting the chrony in front of the rifle and looking down the rails at the scope. What I find is the scope will clear and allow you to look down its completely length when you are looking down its optical path. Pretty much like when you normally use a scope, i.e. it is only clear when you are right behind it. In this case, if you can see through it, you are right in front of it. Once I set the chrony up this way, I put a laser bore sighter into the bore and now I don't look at it but put my hand right in the middle of the chrony screen. I will adjust the chrony so that the red dot on my hand will go through the middle of the screen and at the right height. I do this for both the two screens front and back.

You get good at this and it will take you 1 minute and no worry about eye damage.

 

[bulwaagh]

I talked to the Caldwell guys a week or so ago and they told me the I phone app has already been updated and the Android version will be updated in a week or so. Check for the new version.

I suggested a dozen improvements, which they assure me are included in the new app. If that's true, it should be much easier to use.

I own the Caldwell for a couple reasons, one was for the cost (the WHEN not IF I blast it, I'm not out $$$) and for the logging to android device. Can I ask what new features you requested that were made available? My biggest complaint is selecting multiple strings for save/deletion (I'd like a "Select ALL").
I cant vouch for accuracy, this being my first chrono, but I'm fairly pleased. The only complaints are the use of 9V and how it likes to chew through them. I got a set of some rechargable NiMH's for that purpose. The other complaint is that when it throws ERRORs due to direct sunlight (sunshade installed, just shooting a while) it'll fill up your string with 10's to hundreds of ERRORs and sometimes the 4600 FPS (or other oddball reading) into your string, throwing the automatic calculations off. It was rather amusing to get a 4605 FPS reading out of my .308 and an onlooker asking me "What in the hell are you loading in that thing??"