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Somewhat Disappointed - Lapua Brass

broncman said:
raythemanroe said:
Sorting by volume does not insure uniformity, sorting by volume only insures volume. You can have a egg hold the same volume of a square box..The same volume may be more important to consistent pressures then uniformity.
:o
uniformity of volume to acheive uniformity of pressure is what you are after correct??? granted, uniform neck clearance etc is great..but we are really talking about volume and related pressure in this thread??

One reason a good load that holds good ES over several tenths of a grain is awesome to have...then small case capacity changes makes less difference


But to clarify my earlier statemont in uniformity....yes ray you are right...measuring volume only insures uniformity of volume alone...

Wasn't trying to say you were wrong, leaning the importance to volume over uniformity was my goal. Two different weights could yield the same volume and produce better results then the same weight and different volumes..that was what I was trying to say
 
Generally speaking, except for slight differences such as LC vs Win brass for 223 (I think you were perhaps thinking of 308), your thinking is similar to mine. I already do all the stuff like neck turning, annealing, etc and all the other stuff…. Would even say that I can see changes in 0.01gr of powder charge but here is the problem – how much case volume variation is OK? The reason is the stricter the limits, the lower the yield in terms of good cases from any batch, and you need enough cases so that you are not always working on brass vs. shooting.

The problem with Lapua is the cost which limits the starting number, this is less of a problem with LC. Of course culling by weight/volume is only part of the cull since neck thickness variation is another biggie and so this can really limit your “good” cases. Speaking of weight/volume culling, I guess one can instead of culling just split them into different batches and only tune and shoot within each group?
 
Jlow, you'd have to run the numbers through QuickLoad, while calibrated to your powder, barrel, load, etc. With this, you can see how a given span of H20 capacity might affect you.

Cost of brass is relative to the use you get from it.
I can make any brass last forever, so I couldn't care less if they cost $10 a piece.
That they cost so much less, enables me to pick out the best of it regardless of brand. And I could isolate 50 remington cases out of 1,000 that measure better than typical Lapua -at about the same cost when said & done.
 
ALO said:
I received a 100 box of Lapua 223 the other day and was a little disheartened when I started to weight them. Am I just wasting my time by weighing case?

Tony Boyer, the most winingest short-range benchrest champion of all time, a man who has enough points to be inducted into the Benchrest Hall of Fame over 16 Times, does not sort his brass by weight. Based on those facts, I'd say you're wasting your time.
 
Tony shoots one particular case, at relatively short range. I have been told that there are significant differences in the quality and consistency of different calibers in the Lapua line. I am also aware that extreme spreads of velocity that would work just fine at shorter ranges, would put one at a definite disadvantage at 600 and 1,000 yards, by the amount of vertical shot dispersion that they would produce. The reason that I went off topic in my previous post is that the factor that I discussed showed up at more common distances to a significant degree. IMO the longer the distance, the greater the need to do it all. For short range PPC work, you can add me to the list of those who do not sort cases by weight. On the other hand, given my lack of achievement in competition, perhaps it would be better to avoid anything that I am doing altogether. ;)
 
jlow said:
So interesting question as I have also just brought and weight sorted 200 Lapua 223 brass this week. My results out of the box are very similar to ALO’s i.e. the average weight from the two boxes were 95.25 gr and 95.14 gr respectively. Weight variation was 2.58 gr and2.52 gr, and the max and min weights were 96.36 gr/94.78 gr and 96.42 gr/93.90 gr respectively.

I know people here don’t believe that weight has anything to do with volume, and I agree that volume should only be determined after firing but in the past at least with LC09 223 brass, I have found good correlation between weight and volume (after firing). Measuring 20 cases by both weight (2x with Gempro 250) and volume (3x each with rubbing alcohol) The correlation coefficient between the two numbers was 0.72 and BTW 1.0 is a perfect correlation.

Have not done this with the LaPua as they are yet unfired but my question is the same i.e. what effect will weight or for that matter volume variance will have on precision/accuracy? For example, we know for a fact that case with thicker walls i.e. like an LC 308 case will need less powder as pressure will be greater for the same load. So when one uses cases with this much weight/volume range even if one does load development with say a batch of cases in say the lower weight/volume, would one be in danger of moving out of a node say as one use higher case weight/volume?

Maybe you and the OP should swap some cases to tighten up your spreads... ;)
 
Mikecr – yea, I’ve been holding off on QL but it’s stupid and I am going to make the jump. What you say about brass makes sense to me.

Outdoorsman – What Boyd said is the truth. When you are talking about precision reloading, the details makes all the difference.

Mark Walker in TX – you might have an idea there!
 
I bought a new box of blue box 6br last year.I am just using them now.Anyways when I neck sized them for the first time to turn the necks,the bushing was smooth as glass,using redding die wax and started to size them (only.002 thou and they scored horribly.I wasn't too excited as I was cleaning them up anyways,but what I discovered is I believe the brass was overannealed from the factory.Needless to say I was not happy.I weighed some and they were close enough to not having to worry about that.I only wish the factory would be darn sure the annealing process was correct before running a whole lot.Will I buy anymore in the future,the answer is yes because in the long run it is the best brass around anymore.I have heard that lapua subcontracts the .223 out to another company but I cannot prove it.Maybe Kevin will chime in again and put that to rest.
 
I have found that scratched necks in bushing dies come from dirt, or brass building up on the bushing mouth. When that happens, I soak the bushing in Hoppe's over night and the scratching disappears..
 
There was no build up of anything and the brass is so soft I can almost crush it out of round.I know quite alittle bit about metal and annealing. Its not a matter of if I know it but rather I do know it..What was happening is when it started into the bushing it was galling all by itself and the further it went in the brass was leaving little bits of metal only to be picked up upon its own surface.After sizing I took the bushing out with nothing on its surface.If you have ever annealed you have certainly ruined a few cases in your time doing it when setting the timer for the correct dwell.If you haven't ,then you have never annealed.There was no dirt whatsoever and I have sized 100's and 100's in this bushing with no problem till this batch.
 
Jonbearman – I should clarify that I was not challenging, just trying to get information. I have been annealing for quite a few years having graduated from the socket/drill to a BenchSource. I do know how to tell a severely over annealed neck but short of that I don’t have any surefire way to tell when something is over annealed. My own methods are pretty solid as I use Tempilaq and was taught how to anneal by the guy who designed and sell the BenchSource, but still I figured I could always learn something.

CatShooter – I just deal with this exact problem from my Redding bushing die. The bushing was scratching my neck turn brass something awful…. With a loop magnifier, I found significant brass build up on the bushing’s mouth. My suspicion was that the bushing was not smooth enough which resulted in the galling. I proceeded to polish that area with a couple of Q-tip cut in two, dipped in No7 “Heavy Duty Rubbing Compound" and chucked into my power driver. Worked like a charm! The brass build up came off and the bushing’s mouth is now mirror smooth. Down sized about 200 pieces of brass and checked again - no scratches or any brass build up in the bushing.
 
You use a brinell rester when I can secondly if you can sqish the case out of round they are way overannealed.
 
I don't bother weighing or checking my .223/5.56 for internal capacity, I just keep several 30 round mags loaded for my AR15 and chances are you will hit a Zombie eventually.

Zombietargets_zpscb65209a.jpg
 
bigedp51 said:
I don't bother weighing or checking my .223/5.56 for internal capacity, I just keep several 30 round mags loaded for my AR15 and chances are you will hit a Zombie eventually.

Zombietargets_zpscb65209a.jpg

Three or four rounds of 12ga with #4 buck--------same results 8)
 
It's been my experience with Lapua brass, at least in .22-250 and 6.5-284 that it isn't worth the price differential. In both cartridges there was approximately a 2% out-of-the-box cull rate from split necks, folded neck/shoulder junctions, or deformed primer pockets. This reject rate is similar to Remington and Winchester brass and early lots of Hornady branded brass, but not what one would expect for the price and reputation. The unfired .22-250 brass was too hard and thick at the shoulder to consistently hydraulically form into the Ackley Improved version. A portion of these cases would take a "set" upon two or three firings with difficult chambering being the result, which could not be corrected by full length sizing. Subsequent annealing failed to correct the problem. The forming and sizing dies are chamber matched with no problems from Nosler, Privi or Winchester brass. In the case of the 6.5-284, a similar result occurred where the brass work hardened and required frequent annealing. Even reformed .284 Winchester brass performed normally, with good accuracy, and none of the problems associated with that lot of Lapua brass. I found that for premium brass Nosler's was trouble free in .204 Ruger, .223 Remington, .22-250 Remington, and 6.5-284, without a single cull or deformed case in a shipment. Indeed, Lapua brass is the only brand that I found malformed primer pockets that would not accept a pocket uniformer, where the pocket seemed to be curved jamming the reamer before it reached bottom. From this it would appear that Lapua, like every other manufacturer, has problems with quality control, or lavishes extra care in inspection on certain cartridges. For my use Winchester, Privi, Remington and Nosler are sufficient.
 
I have used Remington and Winchester brass, I liked Nosler's brass better for the most part..I'm not speaking against Lapua, but I would give Norma's newer brass a run..I got some because that was all I could find after the lot of Winchester was rough. My Norma brass was really close on weight and the primer pockets were the best I have seen..
 

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